Advantages of a silver printing with digital negatives compared to inkjet?

[faberryman]

A lot of my clients use Phase One and high end digital capture, some of them want silver prints like the lith prints you saw of Brendan Meadows, and of course others want Azo, Lodoma and other silver papers but they only use digital capture, therefore the quest for the best negative system... I am now gathering that the OP is making negs on a not so transparent substrate and then making a contact exposure, it kind of sounds like a paper negative which will have its own paticular set of workarounds.
Personally I have found the best negatives are Ilford Ortho 25 off my Lambda for printing on Ilford Warmtone , but many workers are using inkjet for silver gloss prints which I have found to be less than satisfactory and this is where I think some work needs to be done to get better results.

You offer a unique, and expensive, alternative of creating a large film negative from a digital file for making a contact gelatin silver or lith print. I understand that it is possible. However, I am relegated to shooting film from the outset for my more modest work.

 

[Per Bjesse]

Hi Per,

You are on the right track using Rosenburg's process. I have found it the best specifically for silver printing, however it does have some minor caveats which you are probably aware. You cannot achieve a pure paper white due to using a paper negative however the control it allows you re ink levels. If you have linearized ink curves correctly in QTR also allows manipulating contrast in a logical manner by varying the overall magenta and yellow ink used. Perhaps you are seeing the pitfalls regarding this?

I do believe inkjet has a better DR especially with monochrome inks, but that is not why we still use silver.
C

I am actually not using Rosenburg's process, as I just recently found out about it. He is using glossy paper as the medium and I am using white film (as are many others). I see no reason why one would not be able to get to paper white in either process though (all it takes is blocking enough light, and I can get to .06 density with less than 30% black). Michael's stated argument for glossy paper does not make a lot of sense to me yet, but I have sent an email to ask for his thoughts (he claims he needs more ink uptake capacity, and for white film I am nowhere near even the halfway point so I must be missing something). His thoughts about the use of yellow and magenta are intriguing, but again it is not clear to me how that really matters once you force a linearization of the transfer function, again I am hoping for a response from him over email.

Regarding your last statement: We are clearly not using silver due to the DR. So why are we from your perspective (other than for the love of the process)?

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Here are my thoughts. An image printed on silver gelatin paper still has cache' for some. The next advantage is you can dodge and burn in the computer. You can also make HDR scans to extract highlight and shadow detail out of a negative. I'm ambivalent about this because I saw a show of black and white prints on inkjet prints and I thought they were silver gelatin. I've been printing in the darkroom for over 30 years.

 

[Richard Man]

"Why digital negs...."

Also remember that some people start with color negs / slides, and nevertheless want a B&W darkroom print.

 

[calebarchie]

I am actually not using Rosenburg's process, as I just recently found out about it. He is using glossy paper as the medium and I am using white film (as are many others). I see no reason why one would not be able to get to paper white in either process though (all it takes is blocking enough light, and I can get to .06 density with less than 30% black). Michael's stated argument for glossy paper does not make a lot of sense to me yet, but I have sent an email to ask for his thoughts (he claims he needs more ink uptake capacity, and for white film I am nowhere near even the halfway point so I must be missing something). His thoughts about the use of yellow and magenta are intriguing, but again it is not clear to me how that really matters once you force a linearization of the transfer function, again I am hoping for a response from him over email.

Regarding your last statement: We are clearly not using silver due to the DR. So why are we from your perspective (other than for the love of the process)?

Sorry I mis-read, disregard the paper white issue. The main argument for using paper instead of film aside from ink capacity is due to masking the inkjet pattern. It is a particular problem when using digital negative films for silver process (especially on glossy papers) whereas in alt the paper texture pretty much hides it. I note you have the same printer as me, the P800 that has the smaller 1.5pl droplets which helps negate the problem too, other 3.5pl heads this issue is more obvious.

The linearized magenta/yellow ink workflow just affords more subtle control and fine tuning, I have yet to experiment with it yet.

As for why we still use silver gelatin, this is highly subjective but lets just say inkjet doesn't have the same 'magic'

C

 

[Bob Carnie]

That makes sense. But if a silver print is not inherently any better than a good inkjet print then where does it shine and where should it be applied? And for that matter, for the other processes, when do they shine and for what type of pictures?

The answer to this question is quite complicated and would be impossible to give due credit, it has taken me 40 years of printing for others to understand the reasons. Every one of us comes at photography from different viewpoints, education, experience and financial obligations. These factors will bias or form our opinions and they probably would not match yours . For example , many people who print spend the first 15 years of their printing experience trying to make the perfect print, after 10,000 attempts most workers either give up before they get to this number or past this number and realize that there is no such thing as the perfect print. Maybe one day I will make one, keep tune.

 

[Bob Carnie]

You offer a unique, and expensive, alternative of creating a large film negative from a digital file for making a contact gelatin silver or lith print. I understand that it is possible. However, I am relegated to shooting film from the outset for my more modest work.

I wish I could afford my own negative options Frank, that is why I am looking for a film from the offset community that may come closer to inkjet.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hi all,

I have just made my first digital negative and contact print with a p800 and stock inks and Pictorico white film on Ilford Warmtone multigrade fiber using a QTR profile that I constructed for my process using a densiometer with a custom gray curve and then a linearization. When I look at a printed step wedge and check linearity of the flow it is good. The print came out well, with nice gradation and great sharpness. However: When I print the same picture using the p800 and a my own custom QTR profile which is spot on linear for a high quality inkjet paper (Canson Baryta Prestige), I have the same sharpness and nice gradation but the dynamic range of the inkjet paper is greater (DMAX 2.56 instead of 2.11).

Now: I have printed in the darkroom for some time, and recently started doing high quality inkjet printing. This is the first time I have actually compared an inkjet print with a darkroom print in a way that is controllable in that there are few variables (the transfer function is as linear in both flows as possible). I would have expected to like the darkroom print a lot more due to it actually being printed with silver. However, I am not seeing it. It has a different look (especially due to the use of warm tone paper) but I can't say that it is better per se. There also is the issue of a slightly smaller dynamic range for the same picture. The latter I can probably adjust for by using a custom ICC profile for the silver flow in soft proofing and doing some flow specific adjustment but I still find it interesting that in an apples to apples there is not a ton of difference.

At this point I am curious to other practicioners experiences. Certainly there can be some issues in my process, it is after all my first stab at it. However, my fiber stepwedges shows that I cover the range from 0.06 denity to 2.11 density and that the transfer are close to linear. Moreover, the print shows great sharpness and gradation that looks as good as the inkjet print. Certainly the darkroom print has a different look with the picture "inside" the paper instead of on top of it. But is that as good as I can expect this to be? I can of course do things like tone the darkroom prints, but again my thoughts are how different things really will be. I would like to tune my silver process to give something that really is markedly different and superior in at least some respect, or offer something unique.

Any input into how to improve the process or thoughts are most welcome. And it would be great to have this be a pragmatic discussion rather than an analog vs digital flame war. I love the wet darkroom but I am ultimately interested in doing the best prints and photography I can possibly do (which includes being able to generate prints with the best look for the picture at hand), not tie myself to a particular technique exclusively.

Regards,
-Per

my experience is not unlike yours; the inkjet print has much higher Dmax compared to the Fiber print(2.35 vs2.15; I compensated as much as I could through the transfer function. on my Epson 3880 and using thePictorico film, my issue was a lack of Dmax with the Epson inks, leaving me with a soft and somewhat unsharp digital negative. I gave up at that point because, I'm not willing to use non-Epson inks in my printer and QTR is a mystery wrapped into an enigma to me.

 

[Per Bjesse]

my experience is not unlike yours; the inkjet print has much higher Dmax compared to the Fiber print(2.35 vs2.15; I compensated as much as I could through the transfer function. on my Epson 3880 and using thePictorico film, my issue was a lack of Dmax with the Epson inks, leaving me with a soft and somewhat unsharp digital negative. I gave up at that point because, I'm not willing to use non-Epson inks in my printer and QTR is a mystery wrapped into an enigma to me.

Hi Ralph, big admirer of your writings here.
I can only speak to my experience with the stock p800. As referenced earlier, there is definitely not an issue with dmax for the digital negative---I need less than 30% of maximum black from the printer to get to paper white with stock epson inks. And as you mention: The printer can lay down a ton of ink. The first print I have done appear just as sharp as the inkjet print, but it may be that the smaller drop size of the p800 compared to the 3880 works in my favor.

As for QTR: It is really not that hard to get a flow going if you have a densiometer or similar device. The only issue is that you have to hunt down information. I followed Keith Schreiber's writeup of a digital negative flow and it worked like a charm after I clarified some details with him. As for getting linear standard inkjet prints using QTR, it took some Q&A over the yahoo email list, but again, people were very helpful (and the information is now on the email list).

 

[Per Bjesse]

The answer to this question is quite complicated and would be impossible to give due credit, it has taken me 40 years of printing for others to understand the reasons. Every one of us comes at photography from different viewpoints, education, experience and financial obligations. These factors will bias or form our opinions and they probably would not match yours . For example , many people who print spend the first 15 years of their printing experience trying to make the perfect print, after 10,000 attempts most workers either give up before they get to this number or past this number and realize that there is no such thing as the perfect print. Maybe one day I will make one, keep tune.

That makes sense, and it must be nice to have all this experience. As someone starting out on this path, I guess I will just have to try things and see what I think. In the end it is about aesthetics, and that is not something that can be condensed into a few words.
As a step on that path, it would be interesting to make the exact same negative using a linear flow on the lambda tuned to some particular paper and a linear inkjet flow on the same paper and compare. But I suspect that this would be pretty costly. Anyway, thanks for all your input, it is indispensable to get to hear from master printers.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I have done this test many times, the only real difference I see is when I am using Silver Gelatin Glossy paper like Ilford Warmtone, then the difference is subtle and softer but FWIW not as big a difference as I first suspected. If I am successful in getting a cheaper ortho silver film then I will be able to offer this service to others at a rate most can afford.

 

[Richard Man]

So is it a consensus that, at least for some people a silver gelatin print done using digital neg could be at least as good as a darkroom print done through enlarging? (depending on phase of Moon and whether it is a Tuesday vs. Friday etc.)

 

[Ko.Fe.]

To me gelatin silver print (FB paper) is always more interesting than ink printer.
I can't do lith print with inks. But I could print digital neg on cheap white paper and do contact print in lith developer.

 

[nmp]

So is it a consensus that, at least for some people a silver gelatin print done using digital neg could be at least as good as a darkroom print done through enlarging? (depending on phase of Moon and whether it is a Tuesday vs. Friday etc.)

I would think that if you start with a singular negative and make a straight darkroom print on to a good fiber based paper and do another one via scanning - Photoshop - digital negative - contact print route, the former in the hands of an experienced printer would be far better than the latter. Where the digital negative has an advantage is, as pointed out earlier, that you have the whole post-processing power of Photoshop available to be able to create an intended image that would otherwise be much harder to recreate in the enlarger-exposed print.

 

[Bob Carnie]

So is it a consensus that, at least for some people a silver gelatin print done using digital neg could be at least as good as a darkroom print done through enlarging? (depending on phase of Moon and whether it is a Tuesday vs. Friday etc.)

If I am using a digital silver negative Yes, if I am using a inkjet neg maybe depends on what paper and process(lith, solarization, heavy texture paper) I am doing a show right now of silver prints from inkjet negatives that will hang in Jan. So I am not against inkjet negs by any shot

 

[RalphLambrecht]

You offer a unique, and expensive, alternative of creating a large film negative from a digital file for making a contact gelatin silver or lith print. I understand that it is possible. However, I am relegated to shooting film from the outset for my more modest work.

I agree that film is the better opti8on if an analog print is the target.

 

[cowanw]

Other than stating what we wish to be true, the ranking of different media as to which is best is fruitless. While both are paintings, are oil paintings better than watercolours? And in any case who is to define best? I just don't accept that highest Dmax or most acute sharpness is the measure of best.

 

[wilson109]

I have been trying for eons to print a step test and build a curve using corel paintshop pro. Out of curiosity I went to you tube and had a look at photoshop cc and the script for building a digital curve. How easy is that! I think perhaps it is time to stop being stubborn and subscribe to photoshop!

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Peter Mrhar has some great scripts. His books are also excellent.
http://www.petermrhar.com/easy-digital-negatives/

ChartThrob is also a very good script for PS.

http://www.botzilla.com/gearhead/2006/10/24/ChartThrob-A-Tool-for-Printing-Digital-Negatives.html

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I've been teaching my senior photography students how to make cyanotypes, using a digitised inkjet negative (Epson 1400, third party ink). Now I am considering teaching them to print their digitised negatives on gelatin silver paper, after they have completed their film & darkroom unit. They'll appreciate that contrast, dodging burning, etc can be built into the negative, and contact print with their min time/max black exposure time. I made a test print after generating a curve in Chartthrob, and profile in QTR. Printed on Ilford MG Pearl.