Advantages and history AZO / silver chloride paper?

[Photo Engineer]

Gerry, Drew, I think that there is truth in both of your comments!

PE

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

Gerry, Drew, I think that there is truth in both of your comments!

PE

I agree.

Put a Stradivarius violin in the hands of Bozo the Clown and it still sounds like Bozo the Clown. Not everyone can print, no matter what you
give them.

So darkroom work is a teachable skill and does not required any inborn ability.

I'm with Drew on this. Darkroom work is a teachable skill only to a point, it's also a creative endeavor and some people simply see differences as well as possibilities better than others, innately.

What separates great photographers from the rest of humanity is their vision.

I do agree with you here, but believe the quality of a print is important and can make or break a photograph.

 

[MattKing]

Adding to what Shawn posted above, vision is just as important in the printing process as it is in the taking process.

In my case, nothing helps me improve my taking than printing the results.

 

[Photo Engineer]

So lets hasten with agility
Before the onset of senility
And the lack of mobility
And loss of agility.......

Or something like Tom Lehrer said many years ago.

 

[gzinsel]

I would say. that . . . . the ability of a person "to vision", "to image" in one's mind is WAY more important skill than the act of printing. Moreover, I would add that some imagist (artist) choose poorly their intended process to achieve image. I would go on to add that some images/ideas that exist in one's mind can be executed in variety of processes. Choosing the right process to amplify the correct tone ( both metaphor and literal) is paramount. While one image looks really good as a photogravure, it may fall flat as a silver chloride print. Actually, It's "causal "ness" may even be better if where hand drawn on a litho stone, and printed on a Japanese paper! I think it is really important for an artist to step away for awhile and . . . . take hold, to reach for, & really search for selecting the preferred/optimal "way" to print in terms of impact/affectation. Wether you are getting a slight decrease in speed/micro contrast, etc. . . . is moot compared to the IDEA of what you are representing/presenting.

 

[removed account4]

I would say. that . . . . the ability of a person "to vision", "to image" in one's mind is WAY more important skill than the act of printing. Moreover, I would add that some imagist (artist) choose poorly their intended process to achieve image. I would go on to add that some images/ideas that exist in one's mind can be executed in variety of processes. Choosing the right process to amplify the correct tone ( both metaphor and literal) is paramount. While one image looks really good as a photogravure, it may fall flat as a silver chloride print. Actually, It's "causal "ness" may even be better if where hand drawn on a litho stone, and printed on a Japanese paper! I think it is really important for an artist to step away for awhile and . . . . take hold, to reach for, & really search for selecting the preferred/optimal "way" to print in terms of impact/affectation. Wether you are getting a slight decrease in speed/micro contrast, etc. . . . is moot compared to the IDEA of what you are representing/presenting.

what a beautiful stream of consciousness post. // whatever the person visioneed ..
the problem is that it is very hard to transatte\\
what one sees into what one makes and even if one finds a process ..
the resulting image isn't good enough (unless the photographer is 'experienced"

 

[gzinsel]

Ya, I agree experience counts too, John. But. . . . . . experience is a weird thing. there's that book knowledge stuff ( time/temp/chemistry) and body control: to control the camera,film, etc. But then, there is out of ALL THAT ; an experience to keep ALL orbiting in "THE FLOW" . there is also the intuitive "choice" to maintain or keep or start THAT zenergy. And while I tip my hat to those who are Very clever as great technicians, I am always more "pulled away" by those people who are . . . . . BEING! Its hard to articulate! even though some prints are not technically perfect, they sure do persuade. and make an impression. Finding that flexibility in oneself is tough. Some material/products can allow, some people to have "an ease" or comfort level to allow them to flow. For some people its SILVER CHLORIDE paper. Its not for every time but sometimes for me. But also at the same token, you won't find me runnin' down the middle of the street @ midnight, shouting " i got the answer, its silver chloride paper!!!!"

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Make that "Moonrise." (onset of senility)

I forget the morning adverse person who said it but "A sunrise is merely a sunset in reverse."

 

[Gerald C Koch]

I would say. that . . . . the ability of a person "to vision", "to image" in one's mind is WAY more important skill than the act of printing. Moreover, I would add that some imagist (artist) choose poorly their intended process to achieve image. I would go on to add that some images/ideas that exist in one's mind can be executed in variety of processes. Choosing the right process to amplify the correct tone ( both metaphor and literal) is paramount. While one image looks really good as a photogravure, it may fall flat as a silver chloride print. Actually, It's "causal "ness" may even be better if where hand drawn on a litho stone, and printed on a Japanese paper! I think it is really important for an artist to step away for awhile and . . . . take hold, to reach for, & really search for selecting the preferred/optimal "way" to print in terms of impact/affectation. Wether you are getting a slight decrease in speed/micro contrast, etc. . . . is moot compared to the IDEA of what you are representing/presenting.

I would like to add the question. When does an image by a famous photographer cease to be his. The Weston sons made prints from their father's negatives. Are the photographs any less authentic than an original Edward Weston print? Put one of each two side by side an try to pick out the original.

 

[gzinsel]

good question Gerald! I do not know?? I will take a stab at it though: I would argue that both prints( one made Edward, and say, , , one by Brett) are authentic. There might be a slight difference in interpretation, or if even time has slipped by and same material is no longer offered, but . . . . The other part of "this" , . . . . this dynamic is. . . . Drum roll. . . .. . exactly: repeatability( within a very small margin of error) . Photographic paper has a sensitomitry curve "that" is repeatable. I know, Ii know,,,,,, I am going to get apt of flak for that . But compared to other "repeatable " printmaking matrix, ( litho, etching, offset, woodcut) photographic paper is "really" repeatable. Moreover, Gerald, The negative is the "real" image, not the reproduction of the negative. I mean, what holds value here, is a person( E. Weston), who through political maneuvering has been able to sustain himself and his work in the Market place. There are many people who have supported Edward Weston, because they believed in his work. Through that unyielding support, his images are what they are. Yes, he is talented, but without support, images don't get shown. I realize i am digressing from your original question, but I can not look at your question without its duplicitous nature. ( both metaphorically, and literally). If its a E. Weston Image, its a E.Weston image, regardless if he, brett or cole, or an assistant printed for him, strictly because the Market place said so. But I would argue The "real" value is the Neg.

 

[Cybertrash]

Forgive me for asking, I haven't read the entire thread but I wonder, what is the difference between an Azo paper and a Salt print (which I've understood is also silver chloride)?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Forgive me for asking, I haven't read the entire thread but I wonder, what is the difference between an Azo paper and a Salt print (which I've understood is also silver chloride)?

Azo paper was a Kodak paper made like bromide and chlorobromide papers. As such the emulsion was silver chloride but also contained other things such as sensitizers. The paper base was on sized or coated paper to increase its whiteness. These papers were available in gloss and matte finishes and supplied in more than one paper grade. IIRC, grades 2 and 3 were made.

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

These papers were available in gloss and matte finishes and supplied in more than one paper grade. IIRC, grades 2 and 3 were made.

At one point Azo was offered in grades 1 through 5.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

At one point Azo was offered in grades 1 through 5.

Thanks. It's been a very long time and I only used grades 2 and 3 on graded papers.

 

[Photo Engineer]

There are samples of Azo paper in 19 paper types and 5 grades of contrast at GEH. It is in a very nice salesman's kit.

PE

 

[papermaker]

Several of the Azo papers were available in Grades 0,1,2,3,4,5.