ADOX XT-3 (beautiful) "sparkles" in solution

Denis OLIVIER · May 26, 2024

Hello

This is not the first time I see that, and I wonder what it is.

This XT-3 1 liter stock has 2 weeks, and is stored in 4 x 250 glass bottles, filled up the cap.

It’s just like small glitter dusts, sparks or crystal needles that dissolve slowly (for eyes, not sure at molecular level) when I agitate the solution.

It has been prepared with demineralized water.

I should better throw it away or I can use it?

Thank you for your guidance and understand what to expect

Anon Ymous · May 26, 2024

Looks like something has precipitated out of solution, these look like crystals.

Nicholas Lindan · May 26, 2024

Try heating the solution to 40C and see if the crystals go into solution without any shaking and now stay dissolved.

It is possible that one of the ingredients in the developer never completely dissolved and there are always microscopic crystals floating about that serve as growth sites. Possibly Part A wasn't completely dissolved when Part B was added?

Anon Ymous · May 26, 2024

By the way (forgot to ask) was it subjected to low(ish) temperature? Did you refrigerate this solution?

Denis OLIVIER · May 26, 2024

Nicholas Lindan said:
Try heating the solution to 40C and see if the crystals go into solution without any shaking and now stay dissolved.

It is possible that one of the ingredients in the developer never completely dissolved and there are always microscopic crystals floating about that serve as growth sites. Possibly Part A wasn't completely dissolved when Part B was added?

Thanks for replying, I will see how I can warm it a little bit.
Yes, all is possible, but I agitate with a magnetic agitator and don't hurry up doing it, much more longer agitated than the 2-3 minutes specified in doc.
More like 15 to 30 mn for each parts. Maybe it's too long finally?
Other information, the temperature is not high when mixing up (around 20+°C).
Then the bottles are stored in the dark at something between 19 to 23°C.
The first stock bottles I used didn't have this, it is only when it stays still some days not used.
I always check now for this "crystals suspension" because this is not the first time I had it.
And it is quite long to disappear at my eyes level, more then 4 to 5 hours with agitation every 30 mn at 20°C.

RalphLambrecht · May 26, 2024

Denis OLIVIER said:
Hello

This is not the first time I see that, and I wonder what it is.

This XT-3 stock has 2 weeks, and is stored in a glass bottle, filled up the cap.

It’s just like small glitter dusts, sparks, or crystal needles that dissolve slowly (for eyes, not sure at molecular level) when I agitate the solution.

It has been prepared with demineralized water.

Thank you for your guidance and understand what to expect

undissolved chemicals or ingredients are falling out of the solution while cooling. I anyway,harmless; just agitate or reheat slowly.

mshchem · May 26, 2024

Too cool, never dissolved in the first place. Magnetic stirrers are great but with a large bulk amount like developer sometimes it's easier to use a hand held stirring paddle. Especially with the Adox Captura technology it dissolves so easily with warm water and gentle manual stirring.
Magnetic stirrers tend to throw the material out to the edges.

Denis OLIVIER · May 26, 2024

mshchem said:
Too cool, never dissolved in the first place. Magnetic stirrers are great but with a large bulk amount like developer sometimes it's easier to use a hand held stirring paddle. Especially with the Adox Captura technology it dissolves so easily with warm water and gentle manual stirring.
Magnetic stirrers tend to throw the material out to the edges.

I will try later to warm a little bit more the water, even I never done it.
But why this appear later, when I don't have it say 24 hours after mixing?
Update: 6 hours after agitation, and in warm bath for 1 hour it is not dissolved, even if particles are smaller.

pentaxuser · May 26, 2024

There must by now be several users of Adox XT-3 on Photrio and yet no-one I can recall reports this effect nor as far as I know did Adox warn of this effect arising after a couple of weeks since mixing. So I wonder what is different in this case?

Did Adox recommend mixing at a temp beyond that which is normal for developing i.e. 20C to prevent any powder not dissolving fully and if so, I presume that once fully dissolved it remains dissolved at 20C otherwise it means that each time prior to development you have to heat to say 40C and then quickly bring it back down to 20C ? However doesn't that mean a real risk of the crystals appearing again?

I can't make any sense of what has happened and fit this into the use of XT-3

What I am also unsure of is the colour of the XT-3. This looks to be quite yellow/gold in appearance or is that the background only and it is in fact quite clear? Certainly Xtol is meant to be clear

pentaxuser

mshchem · May 26, 2024

Call Adox and ask for a replacement. I used magnetic stirrers when I worked as a chemist. We used these for titration, not dissolving powders.
I have a small but powerful propeller mixer that I use for powders works great.

mshchem · May 26, 2024

pentaxuser said:
There must by now be several users of Adox XT-3 on Photrio and yet no-one I can recall reports this effect nor as far as I know did Adox warn of this effect arising after a couple of weeks since mixing. So I wonder what is different in this case?

Did Adox recommend mixing at a temp beyond that which is normal for developing i.e. 20C to prevent any powder not dissolving fully and if so, I presume that once fully dissolved it remains dissolved at 20C otherwise it means that each time prior to development you have to heat to say 40C and then quickly bring it back down to 20C ? However doesn't that mean a real risk of the crystals appearing again?

I can't make any sense of what has happened and fit this into the use of XT-3

What I am also unsure of is the colour of the XT-3. This looks to be quite yellow/gold in appearance or is that the background only and it is in fact quite clear? Certainly Xtol is meant to be clear

pentaxuser

XT-3 dissolves very easily. The yellow, a pretty lemon color is normal. Works well, no issues. I have a 1 gallon glass bottle, full to the top, has been sitting in my darkroom for months, no precipitation, no crystals just a nice clear, color unchanged solution.

My feeling is that the OP just didn't get everything dissolved quickly and completely when mixing. Use a Paterson stirring rod, and 25°C water.
Not a good application for a magnetic stirrer.

Denis OLIVIER · May 26, 2024

pentaxuser said:
There must by now be several users of Adox XT-3 on Photrio and yet no-one I can recall reports this effect nor as far as I know did Adox warn of this effect arising after a couple of weeks since mixing. So I wonder what is different in this case?

Did Adox recommend mixing at a temp beyond that which is normal for developing i.e. 20C to prevent any powder not dissolving fully and if so, I presume that once fully dissolved it remains dissolved at 20C otherwise it means that each time prior to development you have to heat to say 40C and then quickly bring it back down to 20C ? However doesn't that mean a real risk of the crystals appearing again?

I can't make any sense of what has happened and fit this into the use of XT-3

What I am also unsure of is the colour of the XT-3. This looks to be quite yellow/gold in appearance or is that the background only and it is in fact quite clear? Certainly Xtol is meant to be clear

pentaxuser

Thanks for your input.
The color is the bottle color (chemical brown colored glass), not the developer one.
It is not the first time I noticed it, and generally I was avoiding the batch or the bottle when I see it.
Just this time I decide myself to ask some questions

dokko · May 26, 2024

Just as another point of reference:

I use the 5l package, dissolve in demineralised water about 25deg C, stir with a large plastic spoon in a bucket for about 5min for the first part, the second part takes a bit longer, like 15min total (I let it sit in between if I get tired).
I store it in 500ml brown glass bottles around 17-28deg C and never saw sparkles so far.

pentaxuser · May 26, 2024

mshchem said:
The yellow, a pretty lemon color is normal. Works well, no issues.

I wonder what if any change in colour there is when it is exhausted If it goes to a darker lemon then it may be difficult to distinguish the darker from the lighter lemon?

The pre-problem Xtol did actually change colour from that of a clear water colour to a pale straw which was obvious e when it was close to exhaustion but still worked although not as well as fresh Xtol. At least mine did everytime and this then showed up in the leader test with a grey/black colour rather than a pure black

pentaxuser

Philippe-Georges · May 26, 2024

Denis OLIVIER said:
Hello

This is not the first time I see that, and I wonder what it is.

This XT-3 1 liter stock has 2 weeks, and is stored in 4 x 250 glass bottles, filled up the cap.

It’s just like small glitter dusts, sparks or crystal needles that dissolve slowly (for eyes, not sure at molecular level) when I agitate the solution.

It has been prepared with demineralized water.

I should better throw it away or I can use it?

Thank you for your guidance and understand what to expect

If these are crystal like NEEDLES, then it could be what we call in Flemish 'Natrium Pennen' (I am not sure how it translates in English) and these can't be dissolved.

mshchem · May 26, 2024

Philippe-Georges said:
If these are crystal like NEEDLES, then it could be what we call in Flemish 'Natrium Pennen' (I am not sure how it translates in English) and these can't be dissolved.

I think this is exactly what's going on here. I know exactly what you are referring to.

pentaxuser · May 26, 2024

What causes these insoluble needles to exist and why might it only occur in what seems to be rare cases?

pentaxuser

mshchem · May 27, 2024

pentaxuser said:
What causes these insoluble needles to exist and why might it only occur in what seems to be rare cases?

pentaxuser

I'm not exactly sure why. I do know that in my experience it is failing to use warm, not hot, water and adequate stirring when dissolving the powder. I think it's re-crystalized sodium sulfite?? The Flemish phrase Google transaction is "sodium pencils".

I've got a lightning mixer, for powders,

Philippe-Georges · May 27, 2024

mshchem said:
"...The Flemish phrase Google transaction is "sodium pencils"..."

That's why I didn't quote the Google Translation...
"pennen" in this context is the description of longish shaped, hard like glass, crystals who don't dissolve anymore, not by heating nor crushing.
It happend on several occasion while I was mixing chemicals and I don't know by what it is caused, how preventing it and how to solve that problem.

Denis OLIVIER · May 27, 2024

Hi all,
thank you for all your replies.
Currently I didn't used these bottles for processing films as I still don't know how it affects the processing (or not).
I mention again it doesn't appear after mixing, the solution is clear, and some bottles have been used with success. I discovered it (again, this is not the first time) after some days while the bottles were staying still.
I will redo another batch with warmer water in case of and do a more energic powder mixing and dissolution.
I also sent a message to Adox, I hope they can give us more information.
Take care and have a good Monday

Denis OLIVIER · May 27, 2024

Next batch in preparation. I started at 26°C, different from my room at 20.3°C I usually use. Let see how it goes.
Funny I never noticed it, but for "German" people the limit is 27°C and for "others" it's 29°C

Sanug · May 27, 2024

When was your powder manufactured? I had some serious issues with not dissolving powder made in 2021.

Magnetic stirrer or excessive heat of more than 30°C is not required to dissolve fresh XT-3 completely.

Denis OLIVIER · May 27, 2024

Sanug said:
When was your powder manufactured? I had some serious issues with not dissolving powder made in 2021.

Magnetic stirrer or excessive heat of more than 30°C is not required to dissolve fresh XT-3 completely.

Thanks to ask, It's from recent production.

mshchem · May 27, 2024

Yes, XT-3 is quite easy to dissolve. Adox has excellent packaging and instructions.

gorbas · May 27, 2024

I also see it, almost always, in original Xtol. Crystals disappear from stock solution after diluting it with water for 1+1. But they are always there, since introduction of Xtol in late 90s. Never figured out why it happens.

ADOX XT-3 (beautiful) "sparkles" in solution

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