ADOX SIlvermax long term projections

[Deleted member 88956]

ill informed testing?
You probably didn't have a look at this https://pixeldeplata.es/ilford-fp4-plus-y-adox-silvermax/
Silvermax was developed in silvermax developer so...

If i could tell what it actually says I might have somewhat different opinion. Looking at images I see considerable difference in Silvermax's combo favor. But it also looks like scans are not all that representative of actual results.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Adox have been totally open about Silvermax being a one-time batch from the start. Having a public conniption about this isn't going to change things. I'd imagine that a variation on CHS II is the most likely future replacement - though if you have deep enough pockets, I imagine that Inoviscoat will happily make a similar film to Scala 160/ 200x - though as Adox state, the selling price would likely have to be in the 10 EUR + range per roll.

When I said "not being fully transparent" I directly referred to Fotoimpex selling film without mention it is a dead meat no longer to be available. It looks like there are some really happy users of Silvermax, so this is their chance to stock up. I think if Fotoimpex had an appropriate note on sales page, Silvermax would have been long gone from the shelves.

All in all, I see now where Adox was transparent about it, except not where it actually mattered most.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

Let's do some math for the new putative replacement of Silvermax: let's suppose 12€ per film, the development could costs up to 4€ per roll if done in-house, or 8€ per roll if outsourced to a lab (without mounts), then add 5€ more for the mounts if done in-house, or another 2€ in lab. The sum is: 21€ for a roll finished and mounted if done in-house, or 22€ in-lab + another 6€ of shipping = 28€.
It's getting not sustainable anymore as far as I'm concerned.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

If i could tell what it actually says I might have somewhat different opinion. Looking at images I see considerable difference in Silvermax's combo favor. But it also looks like scans are not all that representative of actual results.

I think the difference is not worthwhile the cost difference between silvermax+custom developer and ilford fp4+ plus any developer handy.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Let's do some math for the new putative replacement of Silvermax: let's suppose 12€ per film, the development could costs up to 4€ per roll if done in-house, or 8€ per roll if outsourced to a lab (without mounts), then add 5€ more for the mounts if done in-house, or another 2€ in lab. The sum is: 21€ for a roll finished and mounted if done in-house, or 22€ in-lab + another 6€ of shipping = 28€.
It's getting not sustainable anymore as far as I'm concerned.

If you go back to pre-1990s film prices & calculate the subsequent inflation using GDP per capita - in other words, the affordability to the average person, a roll of process paid & mounted transparency film works out to about the equivalent of 30 EUR or so.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

If you go back to pre-1990s film prices & calculate the subsequent inflation using GDP per capita - in other words, the affordability to the average person, a roll of process paid & mounted transparency film works out to about the equivalent of 30 EUR or so.

No. Up until 10 years ago I was paying 5€ for a E6 roll to be developed and mounted. The roll itself costed me another 5€. So it was 10€ total, 10 years ago.
Today it would be 15€ for the roll and another 10€ for developing and mounting. Totalling 25€.
And the inflation GDP does not count appreciabily anything in 10 years.
Your theory would prove correct if manufacturers would increase the cost of film in % every year = increase cost of living, that is roughly 2% every year.
This is proven not true recently.
An to me spending 25€/30€ to have a roll developed/printed/nounted for projection is way too much.

 

[Team ADOX]

Well, if that's the case I don't understand why this is not stated on sales page. It seems to me that clearing it out would be a beneficial move,

No, a 'clearing out' would not be a beneficial move. At least certainly not for our Silvermax customers. Because then hoarders would buy most of the stock, and then wait until all is sold out at our distributor Fotoimpex. And then they will sell their hoarded stock at much higher prices via ebay. We've seen that several times in the last years with different films from other manufacturers, just as one example have a look at pack film.
So if Fotoimpex would do it the results would be
- less Silvermax customers would have a chance to buy the film
- the prices would be much higher.
We don't want that.
Silvermax film has been a niche product since its introduction in 2012. We have a relatively low, but quite loyal number of regular Silvermax customers. They have read our communication about this film and have always been aware of the fact that is has been a "one coating run" product with a therefore limited life span.

I really wanted to try it out, but with it being dead beat I don't think I will.

You have the following options:
1. Try the Silvermax, and if you like it just buy the number of films you need for the next 3, 5, 7 etc. years. Silvermax is by far the most close product to the original Agfa APX 100, because Silvermax has the original APX 100 emulsion, but with a higher silver content, and is coated on a clear TAC base.
2. Try the ADOX CHS 100 II film: It has an almost identical spectral sensitivity (the differences are so small that they are not visible in the picture), and sharpness and resolution are also about identical to Silvermax. CHS 100 II has a bit more accentuated / more visible grain in direct comparison.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

 

[Team ADOX]

It's essentially the last Agfa version of Agfapan 100 with extra silver added for improved reversal characteristics & coated on a clear TAC base. Silvermax developer uses a high solvency (KSCN) approach to supposedly get a longer scale out of the film.

That is correct.
With the Silvermax developer about 14 stops contrast range / dynamic range are possible. And Silvermax developer in combination with Silvermax film offers also an excellent balance of sharpness, resolution, fineness of grain.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

No, a 'clearing out' would not be a beneficial move. At least certainly not for our Silvermax customers. Because then hoarders would buy most of the stock, and then wait until all is sold out at our distributor Fotoimpex. And then they will sell their hoarded stock at much higher prices via ebay. We've seen that several times in the last years with different films from other manufacturers, just as one example have a look at pack film.
So if Fotoimpex would do it the results would be
- less Silvermax customers would have a chance to buy the film
- the prices would be much higher.
We don't want that.
Silvermax film has been a niche product since its introduction in 2012. We have a relatively low, but quite loyal number of regular Silvermax customers. They have read our communication about this film and have always been aware of the fact that is has been a "one coating run" product with a therefore limited life span.



You have the following options:
1. Try the Silvermax, and if you like it just buy the number of films you need for the next 3, 5, 7 etc. years. Silvermax is by far the most close product to the original Agfa APX 100, because Silvermax has the original APX 100 emulsion, but with a higher silver content, and is coated on a clear TAC base.
2. Try the ADOX CHS 100 II film: It has an almost identical spectral sensitivity (the differences are so small that they are not visible in the picture), and sharpness and resolution are also about identical to Silvermax. CHS 100 II has a bit more accentuated / more visible grain in direct comparison.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

Thank you, welcome clarification to logic behind Silvermax. I was obviously new to discovering Silvermax existance so had to learn the story as I went through some info popping up here and there.

I am already onto CHS 100 II.

 

[Team ADOX]

Let's do some math for the new putative replacement of Silvermax: let's suppose 12€ per film,

That is an unrealistic (much too high) supposition. Because:
1. We already offer another option for BW reversal film shooters: ADOX Scala 50. Price at Fotoimpex is only 5.36€ for a single film, and 5.12€ per film for the ten pack. Scala 50 offers much higher resolution, better sharpness and much finer grain compared to both Scala 160 and Fomapan R. Scala 50 can also be pulled and pushed by one stop with really excellent results.
2. We are working on two replacements for Scala 160: One in the short term, with partly similar, partly different charcteristics. This film will certainly not be more expensive than Scala 160.
3. And we are working on a long term replacement. Different technology, but probably even visibly better than Scala 160 (better detail rendition). This film will probably be also much less expensive than your 12€ supposition.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

That is an unrealistic (much too high) supposition. Because:
1. We already offer another option for BW reversal film shooters: ADOX Scala 50. Price at Fotoimpex is only 5.36€ for a single film, and 5.12€ per film for the ten pack. Scala 50 offers much higher resolution, better sharpness and much finer grain compared to both Scala 160 and Fomapan R. Scala 50 can also be pulled and pushed by one stop with really excellent results.
2. We are working on two replacements for Scala 160: One in the short term, with partly similar, partly different charcteristics. This film will certainly not be more expensive than Scala 160.
3. And we are working on a long term replacement. Different technology, but probably even visibly better than Scala 160 (better detail rendition). This film will probably be also much less expensive than your 12€ supposition.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

Thanks.
Good news then...

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

We already offer another option for BW reversal film shooters: ADOX Scala 50..
Scala 50 can also be pulled and pushed by one stop with really excellent results.

What is the DMax and DMin of this film when reversal processed?

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...We already offer another option for BW reversal film shooters: ADOX Scala 50...

On the FOTOIMPEX page for Scala 50

https://www.fotoimpex.com/films/adox-scala-50-bw-13536.html​

it says Scala 50 can be developed "in the ADOX Scala reversal kit." Where can one purchase such a kit? I don't see listings for it at FOTOIMPEX's or other retailers' Web sites.

The FOTOIMPEX Scala 50 page indicates that film is coated on a PET base. Freestyle's page for the same film

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/594401-Adox-Scala-50-ISO-BW-Reversal-Film-35mm-x-36-exp.​

says it's on a triacetate base. Which is correct?

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

 

[Team ADOX]

What is the DMax and DMin of this film when reversal processed?

Dmin below 0.1 logD and Dmax in the range of 3.1 to 3.6 logD, all dependent on the specific process used.
By the way, it is important to know that the statement "the higher the Dmax, the better", which is often presented in forum discussions (or by some labs), is often misleading. Because some processes with very high Dmax sacrifice a good characteristic curve = reasonable gradation for highest Dmax. Then you get decreased dynamic range and a (too) high contrast.
For very good quality results for viewing BW transparencies on a lighttable and in projection on a normal white matte screen, a Dmax in the range of 3.0 to 3.3 is absolutely sufficient.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

 

[Team ADOX]

On the FOTOIMPEX page for Scala 50

https://www.fotoimpex.com/films/adox-scala-50-bw-13536.html​

it says Scala 50 can be developed "in the ADOX Scala reversal kit." Where can one purchase such a kit? I don't see listings for it at FOTOIMPEX's or other retailers' Web sites.

It will be introduced to the market soon, most probably this year. We've had some bad luck with the packaging for the kit: In spring we had a delay of the packaging shipment of several months due to the pandemic. And when the packaging arrived in late summer, it had some quality issues. And the whole production of the packaging had to be produced again.

The FOTOIMPEX Scala 50 page indicates that film is coated on a PET base. Freestyle's page for the same film

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/594401-Adox-Scala-50-ISO-BW-Reversal-Film-35mm-x-36-exp.​

says it's on a triacetate base. Which is correct?

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Freestyle has unfortunately written it wrong.
ADOX Scala 50 has a clear PET base. So the customer benefits from the unsurpassed archival long term stability (more than 500 years), the superior dimensional stability and a more attractive film price (clear TAC base is much more expensive than clear PET base).

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

 

[Anon Ymous]

Ah, yes, the Dmax thing... Remember the Agfa Scala 200X people were waxing lyrical about? According to the datasheet, it had a Dmax of 3 in their proprietary process, not a huge, absurd value.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

It will be introduced to the market soon, most probably this year. We've had some bad luck with the packaging for the kit: In spring we had a delay of the packaging shipment of several months due to the pandemic. And when the packaging arrived in late summer, it had some quality issues. And the whole production of the packaging had to be produced again.



Freestyle has unfortunately written it wrong.
ADOX Scala 50 has a clear PET base. So the customer benefits from the unsurpassed archival long term stability (more than 500 years), the superior dimensional stability and a more attractive film price (clear TAC base is much more expensive than clear PET base).

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

Thank you again. Those answers are very positive. I look forward to making some monochrome transparencies using Scala 50 in my new F6 with Sigma Art lenses.

 

[DeletedAcct1]

For very good quality results for viewing BW transparencies on a lighttable and in projection on a normal white matte screen, a Dmax in the range of 3.0 to 3.3 is absolutely sufficient.

Even lower figures will yield excellent slides

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Ah, yes, the Dmax thing... Remember the Agfa Scala 200X people were waxing lyrical about? According to the datasheet, it had a Dmax of 3 in their proprietary process, not a huge, absurd value.

Interestingly, DR5's Dmax for Agfa Scala 200X is 3.05 unlike the spectacularly high Dmax for some other films. This probably suggests that DR5 process does not involve post intensification to boost DR5 as suspected by some.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Ah, yes, the Dmax thing... Remember the Agfa Scala 200X people were waxing lyrical about? According to the datasheet, it had a Dmax of 3 in their proprietary process, not a huge, absurd value.

And it was more than convincing - I'd rather have good tonality & a good black, rather than obsessions about DMax number games.

2. We are working on two replacements for Scala 160: One in the short term, with partly similar, partly different charcteristics. This film will certainly not be more expensive than Scala 160.
3. And we are working on a long term replacement. Different technology, but probably even visibly better than Scala 160 (better detail rendition). This film will probably be also much less expensive than your 12€ supposition.

Will these be available in formats other than just 35mm?

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

And it was more than convincing - I'd rather have good tonality & a good black, rather than obsessions about DMax number games.

AFAIK nobody has complained about DR5's tonality despite his unbelievably high DMax. Customer feedback has been unequivocally positive about his processing. This means high DMax doesn't necessarily comes at the expense of good tonality. It would be good to keep judgement on DMax on hold till his method becomes public next year IMO, ie till we all can (hopefully) independently compare DR5 results with other contenders including the Agfa-Gaevert patent.

 

[Team ADOX]

AFAIK nobody has complained about DR5's tonality despite his unbelievably high Dmax.

Well, our colleagues from Fotoimpex have had a significant number of customers reporting such problems with certain films. And not only with that process, but with other very high Dmax processes, too.

This means high DMax doesn't necessarily comes at the expense of good tonality.

No, not necessarily, but the risk that it happens is quite real, the results are there. Therefore our recommendation to have a look at the overall quality, including all parameters, and not concentrating only on one data sheet value.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

 

[Team ADOX]

And it was more than convincing - I'd rather have good tonality & a good black, rather than obsessions about DMax number games.

Indeed, Agfa Scala 200X has set the benchmark for BW transparencies. Therefore our project continuing this legacy with the ADOX Scala 160 film. Projected slides of these films are just amazing. Because they have a very well balanced combination of all important quality parameters.
Obsession about a certain spec sheet value has unfortunately become extremely popular in digital photography (the megapixel race, highest frames per second rate and so on). We film photographers should not fall into this trap. A wonderful picture is determined by other more important factors, and it is always a combination of different factors.

Will these be available in formats other than just 35mm?

As recently explained in the ADOX partner subforum, offering format 120 roll film again is one of our major priorities next year. It's a huge and very difficult project, as we have to implement several new production steps in our own factory. Production steps which have been done by partners in former times. Partners which are gone now.
Confectioning / converting of 135 and 120 film on an industrial scale with very good quality is really high-tech production. Most photographers have no idea how sophisticated and difficult it is

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

 

[Team ADOX]

Thank you again. Those answers are very positive. I look forward to making some monochrome transparencies using Scala 50 in my new F6 with Sigma Art lenses.

Congratulations to your new F6 ! It is an absolutely outstanding camera.
Scala 50 currently offers the best detail rendition (highest resolution, finest grain, best sharpness) of all BW reversal films. With the F6 and Sigma Art lenses you really can fully exploit its huge potential. Project the slides with a good slide projector and excellent projection lens....and you will be hooked . Guaranteed.....

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Well, our colleagues from Fotoimpex have had a significant number of customers reporting such problems with certain films.

This is weird! Why're customers of DR5 reporting to Fotompex the problems they face with DR5 processing?! They should report the problems to DR5 and additionally make the problems known through forums such as this. Anyway, can you share with us the problems DR5 customers have reported to Fotoimpex?

Therefore our recommendation to have a look at the overall quality, including all parameters, and not concentrating only on one data sheet value.

It is your assumption that users are concentrating on one data sheet value. No they're not. Hey! these data sheet values, DMax and DMin, are not in your datasheet ;-P and it's a pity that I had to get them from you through this thread!

Now if you claim that your process gives overall better overall quality than DR5 and other processes, the burden of proof is on you. Why don't you do a systematic comparison with DR5 processed film and make your study public? Wouldn't that benefit everyone?