Adox Pan 25 discontinued?

[georg16nik]

Fantastic!!!
Thanks a lot!

 

[mopar_guy]

Mirko,

Thank you for the updated information. I can't wait to try some

 

[aengelphoto]

Where to buy in the USA

This is my first post. Living in the USA where does one purchase the 120 cms 20 and the adotech II?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

You might like Ilford Pan-F Plus rated at ISO 25 and developed in D-23. I have never been satisfied with document films and find they are always too contrasty for my taste.

 

[mopar_guy]

This is my first post. Living in the USA where does one purchase the 120 cms 20 and the adotech II?

Yikes! Good question. I see that Freesyle carries CMS in 35mm and also lists the Developer. Maybe a inquiry at Freestyle would shed some light on this?

 

[georg16nik]

@Gerald C Koch...,
Adox CMS 20 and Ilford Pan f belongs in quite different leagues.
Adox CMS 20 in Adotech or TETENAL Dokumol, or even Rodinal 1:200 is spectacular.
Some of us have been working with Adox CMS 20 for years, used it in various conditions/sets etc etc.
Also, I have been developing Adox CMS 20 with chemistry, dissolved in electro-activated water.. and I have tried other emulsions that way as well, so I pretty much know where I stand and where the currently existing products stand
Now, obviously there is a new Adotech developer, adding some new shades to the already awesome package

 

[aengelphoto]

I will check with Freestyle on Mon. When I called them several months ago regarding the UR developer, they were happy to special order it with a 6 week wait. My interest in the 120 cms20 is to scale down from ULF, produce the highest quality digital neg, and platinum or carbon print. The attraction of 120 is of course the smaller footprint, decreased susceptibility to wind, and expanded photographing options even if I remain wedded to a tripod and mlu. If I need to order from Europe what are my options for a site in English. Thanks for the help.

 

[aengelphoto]

I will also check with digitaltruth.com.

 

[Роберт]

In this way the SPUR company (Aachen - Germany) seems to be very active in suitable developers for (Agfa) Copex micro films like CMS20 and ATP1.1

They made the new (Rollei) ATP-DC A1/B (35mm) - A2/B (roll film) for the Rollei-Maco company and this new Adotech II for Adox-Impex. They are selling also their own SPUR Modular UR (new) developer for developing micro films.

http://www.spur-photo.com/

 

[K-G]

I will check with Freestyle on Mon. When I called them several months ago regarding the UR developer, they were happy to special order it with a 6 week wait. My interest in the 120 cms20 is to scale down from ULF, produce the highest quality digital neg, and platinum or carbon print. The attraction of 120 is of course the smaller footprint, decreased susceptibility to wind, and expanded photographing options even if I remain wedded to a tripod and mlu. If I need to order from Europe what are my options for a site in English. Thanks for the help.

Fotoimpex in Berlin has CMS 20 in 120 size in their web-shop. Unfortunately their English language support is not complete but if you look at the enclosed link and send them a mail in English, I think they can fix it for you. They are very helpful.
Good luck !

Karl-Gustaf

 

[K-G]

I forgot the link. Sorry !

Karl-Gustaf

http://www.fotoimpex.de/shop/filme/...ollfilm-120-first-batch-weisse-aufkleber.html

 

[aengelphoto]

Thank you! Perhaps if Mirko is watching this thread, he might comment on whether any US retailers are planning on carrying the 120. And when the Adotech II might be available

 

[K-G]

Thank you! Perhaps if Mirko is watching this thread, he might comment on whether any US retailers are planning on carrying the 120. And when the Adotech II might be available

Perhaps you should send him a mail. I have been in contact with him before and he wrote that he can only check the APUG conversation when he has time, but he has been very helpful in answering questions. You can reach him at info@adox.de .

Karl-Gustaf

 

[Roger Cole]

@Gerald C Koch...,
Adox CMS 20 and Ilford Pan f belongs in quite different leagues.
Adox CMS 20 in Adotech or TETENAL Dokumol, or even Rodinal 1:200 is spectacular.
Some of us have been working with Adox CMS 20 for years, used it in various conditions/sets etc etc.
Also, I have been developing Adox CMS 20 with chemistry, dissolved in electro-activated water.. and I have tried other emulsions that way as well, so I pretty much know where I stand and where the currently existing products stand
Now, obviously there is a new Adotech developer, adding some new shades to the already awesome package

What the heck is "electro-activated water?" :confused:

I'm another who has never much cared for document films and specialty low contrast developers for them for pictorial use, but if you absolutely must have the finest possible grain in 35mm, that's the way to get it. Personally I'd rather just shoot a larger negative to start with. I really don't need finer grain or higher resolving power than I can get out of a conventional slow film or 100 speed T-grain film in 120 negative sizes, but of course YMMV and having choices is a very good thing.

 

[georg16nik]

What the heck is "electro-activated water?"

It is produced by the electrolysis of water (tap) or distilled water with some minerals added to it, so you get alkaline and acid fractions or if You prefer hydrogen gas, hydroxide ions et etc.,, vs hypochlorous acid etc etc...

Electro-activated water has been in use by various industries for decades.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Electro-activated water in just a new "snake oil."

 

[georg16nik]

It might be new thing in US but its > 40 years old industry tool in Europe.

 

[ntenny]

There's a Wikipedia article on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysed_water
---but reading it sort of left me more confused than when I started. The term seems to refer more to a process for producing various solutions than to any particular resulting substance.

-NT

 

[aengelphoto]

Karl-Gustav- Thanks for the links. I called Freestyle, the US importer, and they are expecting a shipment from Adox in late August. Their telephone sales reps list the 120 cms 20 on their screens, although it is not yet listed on the web site. I did not get any info on Adotech II. It looks like I will be able to get stuff in the US.

 

[georg16nik]

@aengelphoto
I have friends in US who sometimes order Adox products straight from Fotoimpex official web store http://fotoimpex.de/ it could be the fastest way in Your situation.

I am gona try the new Adotech v2 sometime next week, so I could share info then.
As for the original topic.. I still got a few rolls of Adox Pan 25 but looks like that will be it.

@ntenny You are right, just checked Your link..lol some of the info is relatively true but its been like that for years in the most wikis.
btw: the resulting substances are 2 or 3 depending on the process..
generally is anolyte and catholyte substances.
You can check google scholar, they have a good list of scientific articles.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&newwindow=1&as_sdt=1,5&q=anolyte
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&newwindow=1&as_sdt=1,5&q=catholyte
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&newwindow=1&as_sdt=1,5&q=anolyte+catholyte

 

[FiatluX]

Bah CMS will never be available in 4X5 hence my original question.. CHS Art is good but not anywhere near the Pan 25 unfortunately!

 

[Film-Niko]

Hi Mirko,

thank you very much for all your efforts and the promising news.
120 film converting and an improved Adotech II developer sounds good!

Copex Rapid is a very good film as well but CMS 20 is by far superior in fine grain and detail contrast.

That is right.
But:
Agfa Copex Rapid, developed in the dedicated SPUR Modular UR New developer, is far superior to CMS 20 in
- speed (real ISO 40; CMS 20 has only real ISO 6)
- usability for handheld photography without problems
- tonality (even better than most conventional films)
- better characteristic curve with excellent shadow detail and much better highlight separation
- dynamic range (14 stops)
- real panchromatic sensitisation
- flexibility, Agfa Copex Rapid is even excellent in reversal processing with increased speed.

In respect to the obvious disaffirmation which some mainly US based photographers seem to have against a working and perfected imaging system containing a microfilm plus a dedicated developer I can comment that you are ofcourse free in your choice but the results will very probably be inferior.

Right!
The problem is that photographers use these US developers like Pota, TD-3 or diluted standard developers, which doesn't work properly with the current microfilms.
It's a kind of rape of the films.
These old formulas from Photographers Formulary are completely outdated.
By far the best stuff today are the SPUR developers, which are designed for the current Agfa microfilms.

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

Film-Niko,

Copex Rapid is a different film which for sure is the better choice if you try to replace PAN 25 as it performs among the microfilms the most like a regular film.
But is can´t be compared to CMS 20 because it has grains of twice the size of CMS 20.
We decided that we don´t use the Copex Rapid (next to selling the Spur product ofcourse, we have been friends for many years) because we wanted the best resolving microfilm in the world to set the benchmark.

Also you are comparing the old CMS 20 plus ADOTECH I obviously.
The usability of the curve has been extended with the new ADOTECH II so some of your named differences will disappear or be less visible.

I wonder about your claim for sensitization. The sensitization of both films is very similar and I would not call Copex Rapid "real panchromatic".

ADOTECH II is now in production. The test-phase is finished.
Freestyle will carry both products.

FlatLux,

CMS 20 has been available in 4x5 since 4 years. We just have a temporary lack of supply because the sheetfilm confectioning we used has been closed and our own confectioning is in the process of beeing set up and in the meantime we ran out.

It will be back the latest in December unless we find a temporary solution.

You sayd that: "CHS Art is good but not anywhere near the Pan 25 unfortunately! "

Would you mind telling me which differences you found exactly?

Kind regards,

Mirko

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

Just so no one gets confused here because we are talking about CMS 20 in the PAN 25 thread: Our replacement film for PAN 25 is CHS 25.

CMS 20 might be also an interesting alternative to look into but it is a closed imaging system consisiting of Film plus dedicated developer which enables you to shoot in 35mm with the resolution of 4x5" but limits you in your creative choice of selecting the developer.

Kind regards,

Mirko

 

[Film-Niko]

Hi Mirko,

Film-Niko,

Copex Rapid is a different film which for sure is the better choice if you try to replace PAN 25 as it performs among the microfilms the most like a regular film.

I completely agree. I have replaced Pan 25, Pan F+ and APX 25 with Agfa Copex Rapid and Spur Modular UR New developer.
Using is easy, like a conventional film, but with much better quality.

But is can´t be compared to CMS 20 because it has grains of twice the size of CMS 20.

Right.
I know that because I use both films .
CMS 20 is an almost grainless film, it is really extreme.
In cases I need that or want that, and circumstances allow a tripod (for best tonality and shadow detail I expose the film with ISO 4 - 6 and with little reduced development time, that works best), then I take CMS 20.

In daily photography I prefer the more versatile ISO 40 Agfa Copex / Modular UR New combination.
And this combination is really fine grained, too. 16x20" prints from 35 mm are excellent.

Horses for courses.

Also you are comparing the old CMS 20 plus ADOTECH I obviously.
The usability of the curve has been extended with the new ADOTECH II so some of your named differences will disappear or be less visible.

I have found the Spur Modular UR New with Part A2 for CMS 20 to be much better than the Adotech I.
But Modular UR New with Part A1 for Agfa Copex Rapid is even better, because you get more shadow detail as with CMS 20 and better highlight separation.

If I understand you right your new Adotech II is also made by Spur, so I guess it will deliver a similar performance like Spur Modular UR New with Part A2.That is good news.

I wonder about your claim for sensitization. The sensitization of both films is very similar and I would not call Copex Rapid "real panchromatic".

I have compared both films in this respect, and there are visible differences:
Red is much darker with CMS 20 compared to Copex rapid.
Copex Rapid's red is as dark as the reds of Plus-X, Fp4+, Kentmere 100. No difference.
It really looks like all the other panchromatic films.
Whereas CMS 20 is orthopanchromatic.
Agfa says in the datasheet for Copex Rapid that this film is panchromatic.
From my experience Agfa is right with this description.

But in general it is not a big issue for me: I like both panchromatic and orthopanchromatic sensitisation.