Adox MCC & Polywarmtone PAPER availability?

haliderollei · Mar 11, 2022

Hi,

I've been checking Adox's social media and website every week to see if there is any update on MCC or PWE paper, I've read Adox did an MCC run last year, they coated 700 meters of the stuff, haven't seen anything pop up on Fotoimpex.

More importantly, are there any updates on the paper release of these emulsions? It's been eerily quiet. Are we ever going to see these papers again, realistically speaking? I know the pandemic did not help but I have a feeling there is more going on than just that.

Would it be possible to crowdfund batch runs? I have entire collections waiting for the release of these wonderful papers and I would rather have them printed on MCC than on other papers. Please Adox, give us the answers, what can your fans do to make this work?

Best wishes and good luck to all involved.

miha · Mar 12, 2022

A month ago Mirko of Adox commented:

In respect to PW we are done with most R&D and technically ready to produce. However papers have not taken the route of film. Their prices are still unrealistically low with paper production capacities exceeding demand by far and the industry is stuck in the old price-trap which has ruined it over the past 20 years. We are technically cabaple of manufacturing Polywarmtone but economically we are not. Or in other words (again): The cost per sqm of producing Polywarmtone on our scale will exceed the acceptable market price.

This does not mean we will not release Polywarmtone but we are ready to manufacture it in boutique quantities at boutique prices for now.
In the future this will change when either paper prices become more realistic in respect to their production costs or if we become more productive with upgrades in our machinery.

haliderollei · Mar 12, 2022

miha said:
A month ago Mirko of Adox commented:

In respect to PW we are done with most R&D and technically ready to produce. However papers have not taken the route of film. Their prices are still unrealistically low with paper production capacities exceeding demand by far and the industry is stuck in the old price-trap which has ruined it over the past 20 years. We are technically cabaple of manufacturing Polywarmtone but economically we are not. Or in other words (again): The cost per sqm of producing Polywarmtone on our scale will exceed the acceptable market price.

This does not mean we will not release Polywarmtone but we are ready to manufacture it in boutique quantities at boutique prices for now.
In the future this will change when either paper prices become more realistic in respect to their production costs or if we become more productive with upgrades in our machinery.

I've read that as well, I just don't get why they would spend 10+ years working on an emulsion for it not to try and sell the paper. How do they know they cannot sell it at higher rates? They haven't even tried, so are they just assuming people would not be happy paying for it? Personally, I would pay double for these papers. Again, if they are so uncertain, do a pre-sale, our company could easily commit a five-figure amount for these wonderful papers. I love Adox, and I don't like to be pessimistic.

Adox says it cannot sell paper at acceptable market-rate prices and instead double down on color film? How is that even a realistic thing to do? I get economies of scale make it hard to compete in terms of price, but they clearly are selling a premium product. But somehow they are thinking to compete with Kodak and Fuji now?

What am I missing here?

MattKing · Mar 12, 2022

haliderollei said:
I've read that as well, I just don't get why they would spend 10+ years working on an emulsion for it not to try and sell the paper. How do they know they cannot sell it at current market rates? They haven't even tried, so are they just assuming people would not be happy paying for it?

Perhaps they can't afford to make a batch and have it not sell.

MattKing · Mar 12, 2022

haliderollei said:
I've read that as well, I just don't get why they would spend 10+ years working on an emulsion for it not to try and sell the paper. How do they know they cannot sell it at current market rates? They haven't even tried, so are they just assuming people would not be happy paying for it? Personally, I would pay double for these papers. Again, if they are so uncertain, do a pre-sale, our company could easily commit a five-figure amount for these wonderful papers. I love Adox, and I don't like to be pessimistic.

Adox says it cannot sell paper at acceptable market-rate prices and instead double down on color film? How is that even a realistic thing to do? I get economies of scale make it hard to compete in terms of price, but they clearly are selling a premium product. But somehow they are thinking to compete with Kodak and Fuji now?

What am I missing here?

Why don't you make a five figure offer to purchase the paper, as that offer might allow them to assume the risk of failing to sell the rest of the production run - assuming they can afford that risk?

haliderollei · Mar 12, 2022

MattKing said:
Why don't you make a five figure offer to purchase the paper, as that offer might allow them to assume the risk of failing to sell the rest of the production run - assuming they can afford that risk?

Our lab would love to, I personally know many people who would like to make a financial commitment, where do we sign up?

miha · Mar 12, 2022

In Europe, a 50 sheet 30x40 cm (12"x16") box of Ilford Warmtone FB paper goes for a whooping eur 200. Adox state they cannot manufacture FB paper at these current market prices. I trust they know what they are talking about.

MattKing · Mar 12, 2022

haliderollei said:
Our lab would love to, I personally know many people who would like to make a financial commitment, where do we sign up?

Contact them through their website or start a Conversation here - see where you can take it.

Sal Santamaura · Mar 12, 2022

MattKing said:
Contact them through their website or start a Conversation here - see where you can take it.

If you do that through PHOTRIO, I suggest the conversation be with "Adox FOTOIMPEX." That's Mirko directly, rather than "Team ADOX," which goes to his staff members.

greg zinselmeier · Mar 13, 2022

Idk why they don’t offer a prepaid offer for total price to fulfill their obligations??

For example adox needs to make 5000m or 10000m to sell at “x” price. Devide that by sq. Cm you buy and that’s the price you owe and have purchased. And wait till everyone has prepaid then make it. And send it out!!!!

halfaman · Mar 14, 2022

haliderollei said:
How do they know they cannot sell it at higher rates? They haven't even tried, so are they just assuming people would not be happy paying for it?

Mirko owns Fotoimpex, so he has a very good idea about the market. Much better than ours. Paper is a very modest runner in a niche market like analog world, and Adox has limited resources that needs the highest and quickest turnover possible.

AgX · Mar 14, 2022

There is no faster money turnover so to say than at a prepaid production.

gone · Mar 14, 2022

Adox is a company that made one of the best fb papers ever, the MCC 110. I loved that paper. Then, w/ rave reviews from everyone, it disappeared. I'm not sure what's going on them, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on anything like this. The message I get is that if you find something good in the enlarging paper line, buy as much as you can afford because you may never see it again.

haliderollei · Mar 14, 2022

greg zinselmeier said:
Idk why they don’t offer a prepaid offer for total price to fulfill their obligations??

For example adox needs to make 5000m or 10000m to sell at “x” price. Devide that by sq. Cm you buy and that’s the price you owe and have purchased. And wait till everyone has prepaid then make it. And send it out!!!!

These are my exact thoughts, modern times asks for modern business models, do a pre paid run, people are waiting to give you money. De-risk themselves by doing a pre-paid run, win, win situation, why waste 10 years of R&D?

haliderollei · Mar 14, 2022

momus said:
Adox is a company that made one of the best fb papers ever, the MCC 110. I loved that paper. Then, w/ rave reviews from everyone, it disappeared. I'm not sure what's going on them, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on anything like this. The message I get is that if you find something good in the enlarging paper line, buy as much as you can afford because you may never see it again.

They have a paper that is the best in the world, sell it by having people pay in advance, there is no better way to judge demand by doing that.

haliderollei · Mar 14, 2022

AgX said:
There is no faster money turnover so to say than at a prepaid production.

I fully agree, why they haven’t done this blows my mind. We need to be inventive, let your fans pay for your product before hand, I trust them 100%.

pentaxuser · Mar 14, 2022

haliderollei, have you put this to Mirko giving him the details of your plan and then asking him what he sees as the difficulties in adopting this plan?

Can I ask, other than your lab have you researched if there are other customers who are willing to pre-pay and be prepared to wait for however long it took Mirko to get all the money and then produce the paper? Which is your lab and how much paper is it happy to pay for in advance and how long is it happy to give Mirko the money before it sees the product?

Thanks

pentaxuser
.

greg zinselmeier · Mar 14, 2022

I would buy 1 x 5 meter roll.

pentaxuser · Mar 14, 2022

greg zinselmeier said:
I would buy 1 x 5 meter roll.

I fear that to be viable it might require your order and several thousands or possible tens of thousands of other orders of the same size to make Mirko take it seriously. However I await haliderollei's response to my questions with interest

pentaxuser

haliderollei · Mar 15, 2022

pentaxuser said:
haliderollei, have you put this to Mirko giving him the details of your plan and then asking him what he sees as the difficulties in adopting this plan?

Can I ask, other than your lab have you researched if there are other customers who are willing to pre-pay and be prepared to wait for however long it took Mirko to get all the money and then produce the paper? Which is your lab and how much paper is it happy to pay for in advance and how long is it happy to give Mirko the money before it sees the product?

Thanks

pentaxuser
.

Good morning pentaxuser,

Good question, I work at a lab here in NL, I’m not comfortable yet disclosing which lab yet, but my boss and I can commit for a years worth of paper. We print for a major museums in NL and BE, how much paper do we use? Probably between 3000-5000 of 20x24” sheets of paper a year. Apart from that, we have many, many colleagues and artists who would do everything to get MCC back, especially our artists and printers who have worked on the old brovira/portriga papers.

All I’m asking is to maybe do a try poll, a pre order to see how much traction it would get.

halfaman · Mar 15, 2022

haliderollei said:
Good morning pentaxuser,

Good question, I work at a lab here in NL, I’m not comfortable yet disclosing which lab yet, but my boss and I can commit for a years worth of paper. We print for a major museums in NL and BE, how much paper do we use? Probably between 3000-5000 of 20x24” sheets of paper a year.

You should definitely contact Adox directly. With that ammount of paper you could aim to work with Adox under exclusive contracts.

pentaxuser · Mar 15, 2022

haliderollei said:
Good morning pentaxuser,

Good question, I work at a lab here in NL, I’m not comfortable yet disclosing which lab yet, but my boss and I can commit for a years worth of paper. We print for a major museums in NL and BE, how much paper do we use? Probably between 3000-5000 of 20x24” sheets of paper a year. Apart from that, we have many, many colleagues and artists who would do everything to get MCC back, especially our artists and printers who have worked on the old brovira/portriga papers.

All I’m asking is to maybe do a try poll, a pre order to see how much traction it would get.

Thanks for the reply. I take it you mean a poll on Photrio? If so I doubt if there is enough of us who would answer positively with a definite commitment to give Mirko the confidence he'd need.

If you are able to commit on behalf of your lab then the numbers above represent only 30-50 boxes of 100 sheets. This may be quite a large number by current darkroom b&w paper standards but I suspect Mirko would need a committed total order from all parties of much more than this to make it worthwhile for him

However maybe a carefully worded poll in which each person gives a definite commitment to transfer a sum of money to Mirko without being assured of any paper until Mirko had enough total money might be enough

If we fail to generate and send enough money to Mirko have you considered the time, effort and cost to Mirko of then returning it?

I just think the whole thing is more complicated than may be appreciated

I'd start a conversation with Mirko here initially asking him to set out what he sees as the problems and what he would to be 100% sure of in order to enter into such an agreement

pentaxuser

logan2z · Mar 15, 2022

Maybe Mirko should start a Kickstarter campaign to try and fund a run of this paper.

AgX · Mar 15, 2022

Mirko stated in the past that he is opposed to the Kickstarter idea. However this issue here ist not even such project. But maybe the Kickstarter infrastructure could be used for a pre-paid production. Then still it may be questioned whether Kickstarter yield any benefit over Adox dealing themselves with pre-payment.
Also it is not clear whether Mirko is open to a pre-paid production at all. So far it seems to me he is striving for productions running continuously so to say.

haliderollei · Mar 15, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Thanks for the reply. I take it you mean a poll on Photrio? If so I doubt if there is enough of us who would answer positively with a definite commitment to give Mirko the confidence he'd need.

If you are able to commit on behalf of your lab then the numbers above represent only 30-50 boxes of 100 sheets. This may be quite a large number by current darkroom b&w paper standards but I suspect Mirko would need a committed total order from all parties of much more than this to make it worthwhile for him

However maybe a carefully worded poll in which each person gives a definite commitment to transfer a sum of money to Mirko without being assured of any paper until Mirko had enough total money might be enough

If we fail to generate and send enough money to Mirko have you considered the time, effort and cost to Mirko of then returning it?

I just think the whole thing is more complicated than may be appreciated

I'd start a conversation with Mirko here initially asking him to set out what he sees as the problems and what he would to be 100% sure of in order to enter into such an agreement

pentaxuser

I agree with your statements. And again, modern times need new business models. I think Mirko can completely de-risk a huge part of Adox’s paper business by doing pre paid runs. I would say, as buyers of the paper, let’s help Adox out, commit money by doing a pre-sale, if said amount of capital is not reached, accept a refund and as investors of the pre-sale cover the refund fees (3% I think if we use PayPal) to cover financial risk for Adox to show them how committed we are. I’m sure you can have big buyers from all over the world easily commit a production run, ask Adox dealers to join in maybe as well? 3% going out of my pocket is no big deal at all.

Adox MCC & Polywarmtone PAPER availability?

haliderollei

miha

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Sal Santamaura

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gone

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AgX

haliderollei

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