Adox CMS20 developer

Henning Serger · Apr 28, 2019

Hello Alan,

Alan Johnson said:
More testing has shown that this version of H&W Control gives blotchy skies when used with Adox CMS 20 II, it is NOT recommended with this film.
From my notes , the good large optical prints I made from CMS 20 in 2006 were developed in Adotech developer.
The films that appear did develop satisfactorily in H&W control at that time were Maco Ort and Copex Rapid.

I have tested CMS 20 / CMS 20 II in different developers over the years. And by far the best results I've always got with the dedicated Adotech developer(s). Therefore my recommendation for that film: Don't waste your time and money on conventional developers. Get the real stuff and use the dedicated Adotech IV developer. That fits this film best.
If you buy a Ferrari you also buy the complete package with the original engine. You don't buy it without motor and put your old engine from your beetle in it.......

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Apr 28, 2019

GLS said:
Contrast and resolution is lower with the Pan F+ shots. The grain is approximately the same for both though.

I can confirm from my scientific film tests in my test lab that the resolution of Copex Rapid is significantly higher compared to Ilford PanF+. And indeed, the results concerning grain are quite similar.
Contrast: Is - as always - dependant on exposure, development time, developer and agitation. With both films low(er), medium and high(er) contrast results are possible.

Best regards,
Henning

Alan Johnson · May 23, 2019

I had two failures using CMS 20 II with phenidone based developers , one with H&W Control and one using homebrew 1g phenidone +1g pyrocatechol + 20g sulfite per liter.
Both gave uneven skies on some of the negatives, not all. I did not try POTA.
In "The Film Developing Cookbook" by Anchell and Troop there is a long section on document film processing which notes that the oxidation products of phenidone can cause considerable streaking.
I therefore tried their metol based formula TDLC-103. This is not the same as the proprietary TD-3 which, according to a poster who said he spoke to Bill Troop, contains glycin.

TD-LC 103
Metol...................................1g
Sodium Sulfite anh..............5g
Sodium bicarbonate............10g
Water to...............................1L
On my first film I obtained good results with CMS 20 II at EI=12 developed in TD-LC 103 11m 20C, fix 1min, wash 5 min.
TDLC-103 is the best homebrew for CMS 20II I found so far, none of the negatives had uneven skies.

.

Andrew O'Neill · May 23, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
I had two failures using CMS 20 II with phenidone based developers , one with H&W Control and one using homebrew 1g phenidone +1g pyrocatechol + 20g sulfite per liter.
Both gave uneven skies on some of the negatives, not all. I did not try POTA.
In "The Film Developing Cookbook" by Anchell and Troop there is a long section on document film processing which notes that the oxidation products of phenidone can cause considerable streaking.
I therefore tried their metol based formula TDLC-103. This is not the same as the proprietary TD-3 which, according to a poster who said he spoke to Bill Troop, contains glycin.

TD-LC 103
Metol...................................1g
Sodium Sulfite anh..............5g
Sodium bicarbonate............10g
Water to...............................1L
On my first film I obtained good results with CMS 20 II at EI=12 developed in TD-LC 103 11m 20C, fix 1min, wash 5 min.
TDLC-103 is the best homebrew for CMS 20II I found so far, none of the negatives had uneven skies.

.View attachment 224098

Interesting... thanks for trying out TD-LC 103. I'll give it a try. I've also developed in Caffenol LC (pretty decent result), Perfection XR-1 (sucked), divided Pyrocat-HD (decent), and POTA ( very nice results). I'm waiting for a couple of bottles of Adotech IV so I can compare.

fs999 · Jun 5, 2019

I am developing CMS 20 II (20 ISO) in Caffenol CLCN.

For 1 120 film
500 ml Filtered Water
5gr Anhydrous Washing Soda
1gr Vitamin C
6gr cheap Instant coffee
60 sec. slow agitations then 3 times every 3 minutes for 15 minutes, fixing 60 sec.

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 5, 2019

fs999 said:
I am developing CMS 20 II (20 ISO) in Caffenol CLCN.

For 1 120 film
500 ml Filtered Water
5gr Anhydrous Washing Soda
1gr Vitamin C
6gr cheap Instant coffee
60 sec. slow agitations then 3 times every 3 minutes for 15 minutes, fixing 60 sec.

Nice results. What EI? What temperature did you develop at? I also had nice results in Caffenol-LC version.

Pioneer · Jun 5, 2019

fs999 said:
I am developing CMS 20 II (20 ISO) in Caffenol CLCN.

For 1 120 film
500 ml Filtered Water
5gr Anhydrous Washing Soda
1gr Vitamin C
6gr cheap Instant coffee
60 sec. slow agitations then 3 times every 3 minutes for 15 minutes, fixing 60 sec.

I agree with Andrew. These look very nice. I'll have to try your recipe.

Are these printed or scanned from negatives?

pentaxuser · Jun 5, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
Interesting... thanks for trying out TD-LC 103. I'll give it a try. I've also developed in Caffenol LC (pretty decent result), Perfection XR-1 (sucked), divided Pyrocat-HD (decent), and POTA ( very nice results). I'm waiting for a couple of bottles of Adotech IV so I can compare.

My "broad-brush" conclusions on this film, based solely on reading threads on it, is that while there have been some decent pics produced in other developers, it is difficult to decide a really suitable developer which delivers "box speed" which is low anyway for the light conditions most of the year in the U.K.

On balance Henning's findings in #51 would seem to be valid. This stuff appears to match the kind of resolution that 6x7, 6x9 and 4x5 gives up to quite big enlargements and while the developer isn't cheap it may be worth buying to give you box speed and problem free negs if you want the equivalent of MF and even LF resolution.

pentaxuser

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 5, 2019

pentaxuser said:
My "broad-brush" conclusions on this film, based solely on reading threads on it, is that while there have been some decent pics produced in other developers, it is difficult to decide a really suitable developer which delivers "box speed" which is low anyway for the light conditions most of the year in the U.K.

On balance Henning's findings in #51 would seem to be valid. This stuff appears to match the kind of resolution that 6x7, 6x9 and 4x5 gives up to quite big enlargements and while the developer isn't cheap it may be worth buying to give you box speed and problem free negs if you want the equivalent of MF and even LF resolution.

pentaxuser

Henning is probably correct, I need to see it for myself. I've got my two bottles and will doing a comparison with POTA, and Caffenol LC hopefully this weekend. Too busy at the moment making a gum overs, and a carbon transfer print!

Pioneer · Jun 6, 2019

pentaxuser said:
My "broad-brush" conclusions on this film, based solely on reading threads on it, is that while there have been some decent pics produced in other developers, it is difficult to decide a really suitable developer which delivers "box speed" which is low anyway for the light conditions most of the year in the U.K.

On balance Henning's findings in #51 would seem to be valid. This stuff appears to match the kind of resolution that 6x7, 6x9 and 4x5 gives up to quite big enlargements and while the developer isn't cheap it may be worth buying to give you box speed and problem free negs if you want the equivalent of MF and even LF resolution.

pentaxuser

I can certainly vouch for Adotech IV. For those who are only interested in shooting and developing this film with the least amount of headache then this is the way to go.

But...if you are not willing to let Henning and others have all the fun and want to play around a bit...you may be interested in trying other things.

Besides, not everyone is looking for the same results you get with the factory options.

Film-Niko · Jun 6, 2019

My humble opinion on that topic:
I've used highly diluted Rodinal, Caffenol and Pota. But I've always come back to the original Adox Adotech developer for best results. This stuff is made to match CMS 20 II. To match only CMS 20 II so it can be perfectly designed for it. No compromises needed for other films like with other developers.
I see the differences, and therefore I will stay with Adotech.

The detail rendition of this film is not from this world: It's crazy high!! But you should use optical enlargements. Scanners have too low resolution to exploit the performance of this film.

fs999 · Jun 7, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
Nice results. What EI? What temperature did you develop at? I also had nice results in Caffenol-LC version.

Thank you ! 20 ISO. 20°C/68°F. This a different version CLCN from Philippe May.

Pioneer said:
I agree with Andrew. These look very nice. I'll have to try your recipe.

Are these printed or scanned from negatives?

Thank you ! Scanned with Plustek OpticFilm 120 and Sivlerfast AI Studio.
I have made a compilation of the most used formulas :

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 7, 2019

fs999 said:
Thank you ! 20 ISO. 20°C/68°F. This a different version CLCN from Philippe May.

Thank you ! Scanned with Plustek OpticFilm 120 and Sivlerfast AI Studio.
I have made a compilation of the most used formulas :

Thank you for doing that!

Andrew O'Neill · Jun 7, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
I had two failures using CMS 20 II with phenidone based developers , one with H&W Control and one using homebrew 1g phenidone +1g pyrocatechol + 20g sulfite per liter.
Both gave uneven skies on some of the negatives, not all. I did not try POTA.
In "The Film Developing Cookbook" by Anchell and Troop there is a long section on document film processing which notes that the oxidation products of phenidone can cause considerable streaking.
I therefore tried their metol based formula TDLC-103. This is not the same as the proprietary TD-3 which, according to a poster who said he spoke to Bill Troop, contains glycin.

TD-LC 103
Metol...................................1g
Sodium Sulfite anh..............5g
Sodium bicarbonate............10g
Water to...............................1L
On my first film I obtained good results with CMS 20 II at EI=12 developed in TD-LC 103 11m 20C, fix 1min, wash 5 min.
TDLC-103 is the best homebrew for CMS 20II I found so far, none of the negatives had uneven skies.

.View attachment 224098

Alan, how did you agitate the film? Thank you.

Pioneer · Jun 7, 2019

fs999 said:
Thank you ! 20 ISO. 20°C/68°F. This a different version CLCN from Philippe May.

Thank you ! Scanned with Plustek OpticFilm 120 and Sivlerfast AI Studio.
I have made a compilation of the most used formulas :

Thank you for sharing this.

More fun to come.

Alan Johnson · Jun 7, 2019

Andrew O'Neill said:
Alan, how did you agitate the film? Thank you.

The first failed attempt with H&W Control, 30s initial then 5 inversions on each minute.
The second failed attempt with Pyrocatechol etc, 30s initial then 5 inversions on each 30s.
The third successful attempt with TDLC 103 , 30s initial then 5 inversions on each minute.
I found basically the same problem with phenidone and sucess with metol as discussed in the film developing cookbook
The agitation is probably not a key factor.

Rudeofus · Jun 7, 2019

You do realize, that Adotech IV contains Phenidone AND Dimezone-S, and both in quantities high enough to warrant their listing in the MSDS (which does not list any form of sulfite BTW). I don't know what caused the streaks in your samples, but Phenidone by itself is not the culprit.

Alan Johnson · Jun 7, 2019

Rudeofus said:
You do realize, that Adotech IV contains Phenidone AND Dimezone-S, and both in quantities high enough to warrant their listing in the MSDS (which does not list any form of sulfite BTW). I don't know what caused the streaks in your samples, but Phenidone by itself is not the culprit.

I cannot link to quotes from The Film Developing Cookbook but it appears that in some cases phenidone may have this effect.

dimkalinux · Nov 4, 2019

Henning Serger said:
The by far best developer for Adox CMS 20 II is indeed the dedicated Adox Adotech IV developer. You get an optimal characteristic curve at ISO 3/6° (tripod use). For handheld shots ( with some lack of details in the shadows) I use ISO 10/11° and 12/12° as negative film, or ISO 20/14° and reversal development in the Scala process (by Photo Studio 13 in Germany).

Hi Henning, thanks for sharing this information! Can you specify development times for Adotech IV for ISO 3 and 10?

Thanks!

Henning Serger · Nov 7, 2019

dimkalinux said:
Hi Henning, thanks for sharing this information! Can you specify development times for Adotech IV for ISO 3 and 10?

Thanks!

Hello,
I've tested the characteristic curves for use with my Kaiser enlarger, which uses a mixed system (diffusion box and double condensor). For ISO 3 I use 5 min. developing time, and for ISO 10 8 min. developing time. Both with the temperature and agitation described in the Adotech IV datasheet.

Best regards,
Henning

mohmad khatab · Feb 22, 2020

Henning Serger said:
Hello Alan,

I have tested CMS 20 / CMS 20 II in different developers over the years. And by far the best results I've always got with the dedicated Adotech developer(s). Therefore my recommendation for that film: Don't waste your time and money on conventional developers. Get the real stuff and use the dedicated Adotech IV developer. That fits this film best.
If you buy a Ferrari you also buy the complete package with the original engine. You don't buy it without motor and put your old engine from your beetle in it.......

Best regards,
Henning

If you were going to accept the advice of an Egyptian man who is sometimes overlooked and crazy.
Crazy movie needs a crazy guy, and a crazy developer.
I advise you to use the underwater developer (AGFA-14).
It must be prepared using deionized water.

- You must keep the temperature steady from the beginning of the process until the end of it, (you should place the tank in a container with some ice if necessary)
21 minutes developer at 18 ° C, with continuous stirring non-stop, at 32 RPM speed.
- Trust me ,,
After that process ,, you will be sure that all previous experiences were a waste of time and effort.
- I am waiting for you to tell me, thank you Monsieur Muhammad.

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