Adox CMS20 developer

baachitraka · Apr 18, 2019

I think Mr. Henning Serger has tested CMS20 and we must have those links somewhere here. I was stunned at that time but had no real interest in high-res films.

Now, my opinion has changed after the shots of the bark and branches. It just shines on soft day light.

GLS · Apr 18, 2019

pentaxuser said:
GLS the crop of the tree despite the magnification compared to the whole neg, seems to have lost no detail whatsoever. Quite amazing

pentaxuser

Thank you. Yes this film is quite impressive to say the least. DSLR macro scanning helps a lot too.

Now that I have my 100mm Planar back from being repaired/serviced, I will definitely be shooting some more of this film in the near future to try for even higher resolution results. That will warrant going the extra mile with multi-shot stitches, or even paying Tim for a drum scan to see how that compares.

trendland · Apr 18, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
I tried this film at EI = 10 (1/45 f4, 28mm lens) developed in formula 2 below, H&W Control developer:
https://kinasevych.ca/2014/05/04/hw-control-film-developer/
The curve should be similar to the yellow one show for the discontinued Rollei ATP 1
I developed it for 12 min 20C at 1+15 dilution, this was a bit too long.
I show a small section of an image taken from a negative, it does not do the film justice but good enough for the size print I need.
Any other attempts at high resolution photography?

View attachment 221664 View attachment 221665

Sorry Alan - I missunderstood your #1 completely wrong.....!

From cropping image and your description via text - I had the impression there was something wrong (contrast or something in that direction)!
But now I understand it right (hope) you want to show extreme resolution of the film!

Sorry Alan - but then everything was fine with H&W and ATP1 (discontinued meanwhile right?)

what a pity.....cropping image showing high resolution....!

with regards

PS : it was looks such clear (aha problem with H&W developer - No - the oposite)

Henning Serger · Apr 19, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
The curve should be similar to the yellow one show for the discontinued Rollei ATP 1

Hello Alan,

Adox CMS 20 II and Rollei ATP are very different films. Different technology for completely different purposes. I've used and tested both films (and Technical Pan, and Agfa Copex Rapid) very intensively. In all developers I have used I've also got very different characteristic curves with both films. The curves for CMS 20 II have always been much better than those for ATP. But is doesn't matter anymore, because ATP was discontinued some time ago. If you get a similar characteristic curve with this developer with CMS 20 II, it is a bad sign, because it would be an upswept curve with too much density in the highlights.
The by far best developer for Adox CMS 20 II is indeed the dedicated Adox Adotech IV developer. You get an optimal characteristic curve at ISO 3/6° (tripod use). For handheld shots ( with some lack of details in the shadows) I use ISO 10/11° and 12/12° as negative film, or ISO 20/14° and reversal development in the Scala process (by Photo Studio 13 in Germany).

Best regards,
Henning

Alan Johnson · Apr 19, 2019

Thanks Henning, I have noted that if 35mm negatives are mounted as slides I can get 80mb tiffs from mr-scan.co.uk and will give that a try to compare with some optical prints I previously made from this film.

Henning Serger · Apr 20, 2019

Hello Tor-Einar,

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo said:
Even a very good flatbed scanner won't give you much more resolution from any film. That's a restriction of flatbed scanners and has nothing to do with which film you use.

exactly. Flatbed scanners represent the worst imaging chain we have concerning quality. They are "resolution destroying machines".

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo said:
Using the dedicated developer from Adox, I rather sometimes have the problem that the negatives are too flat. After reading all the problems people are having trying to develop different document films in diluted regular developers or homebrew modifications, I honestly don't understand why people are repeating these failures over and over again, when there are sutiable and working developers provided by the manufacturers. The Adox CMS developer is not even particularly expensive, at least not here in Germany. Ex tax, I pay about €36 or US$41 for six films with developer.

I completely agree from my experinence of more than 30 years using high-resolution films. There are very good reasons why - already at times of Technical Pan - dedicated developers for these kind of films have been designed and offered for them. Because with these optimised developers you can fully exploit the outstanding potential of these unique materials.
With ADOX CMS 20 II 35mm - developed in Adotech IV - I get a quality which is even surpassing my Delta 100 in 4,5x6/6x6 results. And the costs per shot are significantly lower for the 36exp CMS 20 II + Adotech compared to the 3 120 Delta + standard developer.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Apr 20, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
IMO Agfa Copex Rapid with its higher speed and lower contrast than CMS 20 would also be better in 35mm but it only seems to be available in 120.

Hello Alan,

unfortunately Agfa has stopped production of Agfa Copex Rapid. There is only a certain amount of the remaining stock from the last coating run around.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Apr 20, 2019

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo said:
Sorry, but it was not on purpose to bring in the HR50 here. That was a mistake. Adox HR50 is not a document film, but a more conventional, repackaged Agfa Aviphot Pan 80, identical to Rollei Retro 80s.

Hello Tor-Einar,

as a long-term user of Aviphot Pan 80 / Retro 80S since its introduction I have done direct comparison tests of this film to the new ADOX HR-50. Test result: The films are definitely not identical. I've got a different, significantly better characteristic curve with ADOX HR-50 (less S-shaped). HR-50 has better shadow detail and less overall contrast. And the new ADOX HR-DEV developer fits this film very well.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Apr 20, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
Thanks Henning, I have noted that if 35mm negatives are mounted as slides I can get 80mb tiffs from mr-scan.co.uk and will give that a try to compare with some optical prints I previously made from this film.

Hello Alan,

you've already given a link to my test results of prints and scans of this film in one of your posts above. Optical prints with an excellent enlarging lens (APO-Rodagon or APO-Componon) deliver by far the best quality with this outstanding film. The second best solution are drum scans.
With amateur scanners in the 3000-4000ppi range really much of the outstanding quality is lost. And flatbed scanners - no need to talk about that.

Best regards,
Henning

Alan Johnson · Apr 20, 2019

Just to note that mr-scan.co.uk (no affiliation) now offers inexpensive 5000dpi scans from negatives mounted as slides, ie they do not appear to be using amateur scanners. I think they are the first to do this.

baachitraka · Apr 20, 2019

It may be also the time to invest in good MF scanner and those are serious resolutions.

GLS · Apr 21, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Hello Alan,

unfortunately Agfa has stopped production of Agfa Copex Rapid. There is only a certain amount of the remaining stock from the last coating run around.

Best regards,
Henning

Oh man, really? Just as I have discovered this great film

Time to stock up yet again....

baachitraka · Apr 21, 2019

How does CMS20 compared with HR-50 when developed using Adox HR-DEV? This developer seems to give a nice speed boost for APX 100 (new emulsion), FP4+...

baachitraka · Apr 21, 2019

@Team ADOX Any words on keeper properties of HR-DEV and grain?

Henning Serger · Apr 21, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
Just to note that mr-scan.co.uk (no affiliation) now offers inexpensive 5000dpi scans from negatives mounted as slides, ie they do not appear to be using amateur scanners. I think they are the first to do this.

Hello Alan,
even with 5000ppi scanners you can only record a fraction of the real detail of that outstanding film. We've tested all scanner types with not only CMS 20 II but lots of other films, too. Optical enlarging - especially with APO enlarging lenses and high-end six-element enlarging lenses - and slide projection with excellent projection lenses deliver the best detail rendition / resolution with film of all possible imaging chains. Enlargers and slide projectors are also much cheaper than high(er) quality scanners.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Apr 21, 2019

GLS said:
Oh man, really? Just as I have discovered this great film

Time to stock up yet again....

Yes, it is very sad. I am using this film, too. Very good stuff. Fortunately I still have some in my fridge.
You have two alternatives for the future:
1. ADOX CMS 20 II: Has even much better resolution, sharpness and fineness of grain. But has lower sensitivity.
2. ADOX HR-50: Offers similar (real) speed and finer grain. But CoRa has a bit higher resolution.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Apr 21, 2019

baachitraka said:
How does CMS20 compared with HR-50 when developed using Adox HR-DEV? This developer seems to give a nice speed boost for APX 100 (new emulsion), FP4+...

Concerning ADOX CMS 20 II - developed in Adotech IV - compared to ADOX HR-50 - developed in HR DEV - my results are the following:
- CMS 20 II has much better resolution, sharpness and fineness of grain (the detail rendition of this film is simply a league of its own - no other film or sensor can compete)
- but HR-50 has significantly higher sensitivity.
And then there are of course the general differences: CMS 20 II is an orthopanchromatic film (red is a bit darker on the final print), whereas HR-50 is a superpanchromatic film (red is a bit lighter on the final print; and with IR-filters you can achieve excellent infrared pictures).

Best regards,
Henning

GLS · Apr 21, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Yes, it is very sad. I am using this film, too. Very good stuff. Fortunately I still have some in my fridge.
You have two alternatives for the future:
1. ADOX CMS 20 II: Has even much better resolution, sharpness and fineness of grain. But has lower sensitivity.
2. ADOX HR-50: Offers similar (real) speed and finer grain. But CoRa has a bit higher resolution.

Best regards,
Henning

Neither currently available in 120, unfortunately.

Team ADOX · Apr 24, 2019

baachitraka said:
@Team ADOX Any words on keeper properties of HR-DEV and grain?

Shelf-life of HR-DEV is at least 1.5 years in full bottles.
Grain: HR-DEV delivers fine grain. But it is not a finest-grain developer optimised for finest grain possible. It is optimised for
- sharpness
- speed
- optimal tonality / curve-shape for ADOX HR-50 film.

Team ADOX
www.adox.de
www.facebook.com/ADOXPHOTO
www.instagram.com/ADOXPHOTO
www.polywarmtone.com

Team ADOX · Apr 24, 2019

GLS said:
Neither currently available in 120, unfortunately.

We are working on it. Both films will be available in 120 format in the future.

Team ADOX
www.adox.de
www.facebook.com/ADOXPHOTO
www.instagram.com/ADOXPHOTO
www.polywarmtone.com

baachitraka · Apr 24, 2019

Team ADOX said:
Shelf-life of HR-DEV is at least 1.5 years in full bottles.
Grain: HR-DEV delivers fine grain. But it is not a finest-grain developer optimised for finest grain possible. It is optimised for
- sharpness
- speed
- optimal tonality / curve-shape for ADOX HR-50 film.

Team ADOX
www.adox.de
www.facebook.com/ADOXPHOTO
www.instagram.com/ADOXPHOTO
www.polywarmtone.com

That sounds really good. I am impressed by speed from spec sheet and I hope it gives better grain than Rodinal et al. Rodinal is not really bad but suffers speed loss.

For fine grain or the finest for that matter Atomal-49 should do. My order for two bottles will be placed soon...

Tom Kershaw · Apr 24, 2019

If I did more work with 35mm I might try some of these films. With regard to medium format, as I've never used 'technical' film before and Kodak Tech Pan was discontinued around the time I got into photography, I'm having trouble visualising the difference between a CMS 20 II negative in the correct 'pictorial' developer as compared to e.g Pan F Plus or RPX 25 in a more conventional developer.

Alan Johnson · Apr 28, 2019

More testing has shown that this version of H&W Control gives blotchy skies when used with Adox CMS 20 II, it is NOT recommended with this film.
From my notes , the good large optical prints I made from CMS 20 in 2006 were developed in Adotech developer.
The films that appear did develop satisfactorily in H&W control at that time were Maco Ort and Copex Rapid.

GLS · Apr 28, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
I'm having trouble visualising the difference between a CMS 20 II negative in the correct 'pictorial' developer as compared to e.g Pan F Plus or RPX 25 in a more conventional developer.

Again, I can't comment on CMS 20 in this situation. However, strangely enough alongside the shots I took on Copex I did happen to double many of them with the exact same shots on Pan F+. Both were shot at EI 25 and developed as per the recommendations from the data sheets; Copex in SPUR Dokuspeed SL-N (its custom developer) and the Pan F+ in Perceptol.

Contrast and resolution is lower with the Pan F+ shots. The grain is approximately the same for both though.

Henning Serger · Apr 28, 2019

Hello Tom,

Tom Kershaw said:
If I did more work with 35mm I might try some of these films.

do it, they are really worth it. You won't regret it.

Tom Kershaw said:
With regard to medium format, as I've never used 'technical' film before and Kodak Tech Pan was discontinued around the time I got into photography, I'm having trouble visualising the difference between a CMS 20 II negative in the correct 'pictorial' developer as compared to e.g Pan F Plus or RPX 25 in a more conventional developer.

I've done a lot of different 'blind-tests' with very experienced photographers: I've presented them enlargements (optical prints with APO enlarging lenses on silver-halide paper) from 35mm ADOX CMS 20 II and conventional films in medium format (4,5x6 and 6x6). All of them have chosen the 35mm CMS 20 II shots as the ones with best detail rendition. And all of them have thought these shots were from medium format film. They have all been very surprised when I've revealed the origin and the original negatives.
And with 120 CMS 20 II you get large format film quality level.

Best regards,
Henning

Adox CMS20 developer

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