Adox CMS20 developer

Alan Johnson · Apr 17, 2019

I tried this film at EI = 10 (1/45 f4, 28mm lens) developed in formula 2 below, H&W Control developer:
https://kinasevych.ca/2014/05/04/hw-control-film-developer/
The curve should be similar to the yellow one show for the discontinued Rollei ATP 1
I developed it for 12 min 20C at 1+15 dilution, this was a bit too long.
I show a small section of an image taken from a negative, it does not do the film justice but good enough for the size print I need.
Any other attempts at high resolution photography?

Kodachromeguy · Apr 17, 2019

Hi, this is interesting. Did you sharpen during scanning? If you are using a real film scanner, try rescanning without any sharpening enabled or turned on. But I am not sure about how the scans look from a flatbed scanner, so I can't comment.

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo · Apr 17, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
Any other attempts at high resolution photography?

I occasionally use the CMS20, but develop in the designated developer from Adox and follow their instructions for exposure and development. I have the impression that the film is more prone to attracting dust than many other films, but except for that I usually get easily printable negatives, which are sharper and have much less grain than most other films.

Is there a question hidden somewhere in your post, or are you somehow unsatisfied with the results you are getting?

Alan Johnson · Apr 17, 2019

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/rollei-rpx-25-grain-and-resolution.115244/page-2
See post 28, optical enlargement of CMS20 with a good lens is giving about 200 lppm
A drum scan 140 lppm.
IMO, and I tried it, flatbed scanning of this film is only giving about 45 lppm so is hardly worthwhile.
A dedicated scanner is well less good than optical printing but indicates the property of fine grain.
However my main point is that H&W Control developer may overcome the contrast problem with CMS20 and I wondered if other developers have been tried.

trendland · Apr 17, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
I tried this film at EI = 10 (1/45 f4, 28mm lens) developed in formula 2 below, H&W Control developer:
https://kinasevych.ca/2014/05/04/hw-control-film-developer/
The curve should be similar to the yellow one show for the discontinued Rollei ATP 1
I developed it for 12 min 20C at 1+15 dilution, this was a bit too long.
I show a small section of an image taken from a negative, it does not do the film justice but good enough for the size print I need.
Any other attempts at high resolution photography? (to use CMS 20 with Holden & Weichert)

View attachment 221664 View attachment 221665

ATP 1 is a much complicate film with alternate developers (I did not use the Rollei special developers)!
Guess this could be exact your problem Alan! (to use CMS 20 with Holden & Weichert)
I am not sure Alan (lack of experience with h&w) but this formulation (I have just compared with other formulas) seams to be more in regard of Technical Pan?? But I am not sure!

So I would proceed with following :
1) you need a bigger stash of CMS20 pls. order it! (if you have expired CMS20 of a couple it is still OK!)
NOTICE THE PROBLEM YOU MENTIONED IS FROM MY POINT NOT IN CONCERN OF EXPIRATION DATE OR EXPOSURE!
It can be caused from incorrect exposure of cause - but would we guess you made it fine with E.I.
ISO 10?

The key with microfilms is on 3 points 1) develloper 2) development 3 ) exposure!

So first use the recomanded developer from Adox - yes I know it is expensive
(I also like it not soo much - but it works)
Next is to calibrate your workflow (absolute exact developing procedure E.I 20 ASA a.s.o.

You will soon get a reference!

Next is to play with E.I. and compare (ISO 10 is also still fine)!

With that experience come along with your H&W - but I guess you will need to tune the
H&W formular in regard of more contrast control!
That is of course a hart task - but also easy (try and error) it is dependable how many Films you will spent for calibration of H&W!
Only two possible scenaries : 1) it will give better results with H&W soon after calibration of contrast contol with H&W (from changing formulation a bit) 2) there is no advantage after a couple of developments - then H&W is the wrong developer!

In the net is a mass of low contrast developer formulations published - there is a way to come to nearly results also in regard of CMS20 & Adox developer - but there is no better one!

I am unable to give concrete advices in regard of microfilms (I have a mass of notes from
D76 + Rollei/Agfa microfilms and some from old type developer formulations)
D76 is not working BTW - but I still will proceed if I find the time!

with regards

It is a much too easy task to use the recomanded developer for microfilms of course!

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo · Apr 17, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
IMO, and I tried it, flatbed scanning of this film is only giving about 45 lppm so is hardly worthwhile.

Even a very good flatbed scanner won't give you much more resolution from any film. That's a restriction of flatbed scanners and has nothing to do with which film you use.

However my main point is that H&W Control developer may overcome the contrast problem with CMS20 and I wondered if other developers have been tried.

Using the dedicated developer from Adox, I rather sometimes have the problem that the negatives are too flat. After reading all the problems people are having trying to develop different document films in diluted regular developers or homebrew modifications, I honestly don't understand why people are repeating these failures over and over again, when there are sutiable and working developers provided by the manufacturers. The Adox CMS developer is not even particularly expensive, at least not here in Germany. Ex tax, I pay about €36 or US$41 for six films with developer.

GLS · Apr 17, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
Any other attempts at high resolution photography?

I shot my first roll of Agfa Copex Rapid about a week ago and developed it in SPUR Dokuspeed SL-N. Early days but these first results are very good. Nice tonality and with the highest resolution I have yet seen in a film/developer combination. I could post an example if people are interested.

I wonder how this film would do with Pyrocat-HD or similar...

trendland · Apr 17, 2019

GLS said:
I shot my first roll of Agfa Copex Rapid about a week ago and developed it in SPUR Dokuspeed SL-N. Early days but these first results are very good. Nice tonality and with the highest resolution I have yet seen in a film/developer combination. I could post an example if people are interested.

I wonder how this film would do with Pyrocat-HD or similar...

They H A V E to be gold because the SPUR is one of recomanded developer for Copex so don't
wonder about that it came good!

Seriously what one need is a little luck with this combination! But I remember Spur from a couple of years it is fine (but also little expensive)!

with regards

Phyrocat will work with Copex but then you will lost microfim resolution and contrast ....
don't have much hope with extreme gold tonals then!

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo · Apr 17, 2019

Using suitable developers made for this purpose, most of the available document films can really be easily developed without much hassle. The spectral response may deviate a bit from regular films and be a matter of taste, but it is not really a problem to achieve good tonality and you do of course have the advantages with much higher resolution than most common films and almost invisible grain. All at the cost of slow speeds, although Agfa Copex can allegedly be exposed up to 80 ASA (I have never tried).

Scans don't justify the resolution and sharpness of these films, but they can be used to show the achievable tonality.

Here Adox CMS20, exposed at 20 ASA and developed in Adotech according to the provided data sheet:

Agfa Copex, exposed at 12 ASA and developed in Spur Dokuspeed SL-N according to the provided data sheet:

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo · Apr 17, 2019

Here, an enlarged crop of the area around the church tower from the first image. The film has still resolution reserves well beyond what my scanner is able to capture here.

This crop is 1/10" wide on the negative (35mm film) and as shown on my monitor, the full size image would be 110 by 70 inches (280 by 190cm).

GLS · Apr 17, 2019

I shot the roll of Copex in question at EI 25 and developed for that speed as per the data sheet. Here's one example (shot with a Hasselblad 501CM and Makro-Planar 4/120):

And a 100% crop from the full res DSLR "scan":

This is only from a single 36 megapixel DSLR frame rather than a more elaborate multi-shot + stitch, but nonetheless gives a good idea of what is on the film.

Alan Johnson · Apr 17, 2019

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo said:
Using the dedicated developer from Adox, I rather sometimes have the problem that the negatives are too flat. After reading all the problems people are having trying to develop different document films in diluted regular developers or homebrew modifications, I honestly don't understand why people are repeating these failures over and over again, when there are sutiable and working developers provided by the manufacturers. The Adox CMS developer is not even particularly expensive, at least not here in Germany. Ex tax, I pay about €36 or US$41 for six films with developer.

H&W Control is or was a developer produced by a manufacturer (It was used for Bluefire film)
Its unique property is that it is the only such developer having a published formula.
The ingredients are common homebrew chemicals, maybe GBP 1 worth to make 250ml to be diluted 1+15.
In the UK the dedicated Adox developer is selling for nearly GBP 23 for a 6 film bottle.
I'm not saying H&W Control is as good but for anyone who has the ingredients it has a certain attraction for test purposes.

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo · Apr 17, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
In the UK the dedicated Adox developer is selling for nearly GBP 23 for a 6 film bottle.

If you live in the UK, you can stil, until Brexit, without tax or customs issues easily order from Germany. Buying 6 films and a bottle of developer (€42.87) from Fotoimpex will including shipping costs (€10) set you back about £46. Fotoimpex seem to have a €10 flat fee for shipments to UK, so if you order a bit more than just 6 films, this can give you a price down to £6 per film including the designated developer. For such a specialized product, I find that a very fair price.

Alternatively, you can simply order from a UK merchant with reasonable prices. Here you will find the films for £4.99 and a bottle of developer for £10.49 (much less than the £23 you are mentioning):

https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/adox-hr-50-135-36-iso-50/p7290
https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/adox-adotech-iii-100-ml/p4400

That will also give you six films with developer for just a bit over £40, but if you consider their £8 shipping costs for delivery withing the UK, it will still be cheaper to order from Germany.

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 17, 2019

A box of 4x5 Adox CMS 20 II is on its way to me. Will play around with Pyrocat-HD, dilute, as well as two-bath, and LC-1B developers.

Alan Johnson · Apr 18, 2019

GLS said:
I shot my first roll of Agfa Copex Rapid about a week ago and developed it in SPUR Dokuspeed SL-N. Early days but these first results are very good. Nice tonality and with the highest resolution I have yet seen in a film/developer combination. I could post an example if people are interested.

I wonder how this film would do with Pyrocat-HD or similar...

IMO Agfa Copex Rapid with its higher speed and lower contrast than CMS 20 would also be better in 35mm but it only seems to be available in 120.
At least, that is what I thought till Tor Einar pointed out the existence of Adox HR 50 in 35mm which some might consider more satisfactory for trying this type of film.

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo · Apr 18, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
IMO Agfa Copex Rapid with its higher speed and lower contrast than CMS 20 would also be better in 35mm but it only seems to be available in 120.
At least, that is what I thought till Tor Einar pointed out the existence of Adox HR 50 in 35mm which some might consider more satisfactory for trying this type of film.

Both the CMS 20 and Agfa Copex Rapid is available both as 135 and 120 films. The availability is however varying. It is quite common, even here in Germany, that the larger film stores are out of stock.

Sorry, but it was not on purpose to bring in the HR50 here. That was a mistake. Adox HR50 is not a document film, but a more conventional, repackaged Agfa Aviphot Pan 80, identical to Rollei Retro 80s. It is also a very high contrast and difficult to handle film, but at least originally made for tonal photography and not just bi-level imaging like the document films.

I actually ment to link to the CMS 20 film, but when I search for 'Adox CMS 20' in the web shop, the first hit is actually the HR 50 instead. The shop I linked to does not seem to sell the CMS film, only the CMS developer.

GLS · Apr 18, 2019

Alan Johnson said:
IMO Agfa Copex Rapid with its higher speed and lower contrast than CMS 20 would also be better in 35mm but it only seems to be available in 120.

No you can buy it in 35mm.

https://www.macodirect.de/en/film/black-white-films/1401/agfa-copex-rapid-35mm-36-exposures

baachitraka · Apr 18, 2019

How are theirs latitude? Do we need to treat them like slide film with no room for exposure errors?

GLS · Apr 18, 2019

baachitraka said:
How are theirs latitude? Do we need to treat them like slide film with no room for exposure errors?

Speaking only for the Copex, I don't know what the dynamic range is exactly. If developed with a document developer it's probably not as wide as "normal" B&W films, but definitely not as narrow as slide either. I didn't bracket any of the shots on the roll, and none of them show obvious blocking.

edit - here are two more examples:

baachitraka · Apr 18, 2019

That exactly my genre. In soft-day light those bark and branches came out very well...

Seems that I will get CMS20 from Fotoimpex soon...

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo · Apr 18, 2019

baachitraka said:
How are theirs latitude? Do we need to treat them like slide film with no room for exposure errors?

My experience with Adox CMS 20 and Agfa Copex is that if you develop them targetting a normal negative contrast, that they have a similar exposure latitude to conventional B&W negative films.

Team ADOX · Apr 18, 2019

Tor-Einar Jarnbjo said:
Sorry, but it was not on purpose to bring in the HR50 here. That was a mistake. Adox HR50 is not a document film, but a more conventional, repackaged Agfa Aviphot Pan 80, identical to Rollei Retro 80s.

Hi Tor-Einar,
ADOX HR-50 is not identical to Agfa Aviphot Pan 80 or Rollei Retro 80S.

Team ADOX
www.adox.de
www.facebook.com/ADOXPHOTO
www.instagram.com/ADOXPHOTO
www.polywarmtone.com

baachitraka · Apr 18, 2019

@Team ADOX Any information on expected date of availability of CMS20 in 120?

Team ADOX · Apr 18, 2019

baachitraka said:
@Team ADOX Any information on expected date of availability of CMS20 in 120?

Sorry, but we cannot give you precise date. We are working very hard on 120 format film. It is one of our main priorities. But production of that format is very difficult, and we want to deliver a quality product. As you know: "Der Teufel steckt im Detail." .

Team ADOX
www.adox.de
www.facebook.com/ADOXPHOTO
www.instagram.com/ADOXPHOTO
www.polywarmtone.com

pentaxuser · Apr 18, 2019

GLS the crop of the tree despite the magnification compared to the whole neg, seems to have lost no detail whatsoever. Quite amazing

pentaxuser

Adox CMS20 developer

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