Adox CHS 100 & CMS 20 in 120 availability projections

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250swb

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I have one roll of the 'original' 120 CMS20 left in the fridge. And I can confidently say to Adox if it's your bank manager that's the problem show them the price of Adotech IV and explain how much of it a photographer needs to process one roll. He should then hand you over the keys to the vault and say help yourself. At the moment the price in the UK is £14.99 for 100ml, which means it costs £5 to process one roll of 120 in Adotech IV. Not unreasonable for 35mm because you can process five rolls per bottle, but the price tempers my enthusiasm for a resurrected CMS20II in 120 because I genuinely believe Adotech is better than other concoctions for processing it and even my standby Obsidian Aqua or 510 Pyro don't come close.
 
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Andrew O'Neill

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No, but POTA, Caffenol-LC, and CD4-LC, come close.
 

250swb

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Andrew O'Neill said:
No, but POTA, Caffenol-LC, and CD4-LC, come close.
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Interesting ideas. I think for myself there is a cut-off point in producing and testing endless recipes, which is fine for those who enjoy that aspect of photography, but I really just want to make some photographs and not bugger about anymore. There comes a point when priorities have to be applied, and I'm comfy with many developers including Caffenol-LC, but if they don't work (for me) I'm happy to say I'm not bothered any more. If I can't mix something I know will work, and I can't buy something off the shelf, then sod it, I'll use another film and not go down another rabbit hole time and time again.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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Trust me, I prefer taking and making photographic images. Looking for a Adotech IV sub is just so that I can save me pennies! I've got one more developer I want to try out...
 

Lachlan Young

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Andrew O'Neill said:
Looking for a Adotech IV sub
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Here's a hint: Adotech looks like it was designed off the back of common industry knowledge that never made it into the populist press, but which Tmax, Xtol, DD-X and Ilfosol 3 (and their immediate derivatives) utilise.

Resolving POTA's shortcomings (it develops some of the emulsion a lot rather than all the emulsion a little) without severely suppressing the sharpness enhancing and density controlling development inhibition effect is the key. A suitable source of semiquinone (in an electron pump relationship with the phenidone), an optimal pH for sharpness (i.e. carbonate buffer - borate buffers are more optimal for fine grain) and possibly just enough silver solvent to enhance developer access to the developable silver seem to be starting points.
 
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Ernst-Jan

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Thank you for your order. Enjoy the "real" photography.


10 rolls are on the way! I already hoped that I would come before Christmas, so I waited with ordering new HP5+ - which was almost finished - so I could combine the order.

Looking forward to use it!
 

Andrew O'Neill

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New HP5+??
 

Henning Serger

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250swb said:
I have one roll of the 'original' 120 CMS20 left in the fridge. And I can confidently say to Adox if it's your bank manager that's the problem show them the price of Adotech IV and explain how much of it a photographer needs to process one roll.
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Well, as someone who is using CMS 20 and current CMS 20 II for years, you are missing the decisive point:
CMS 20 II is microfilm-based and simply needs a special developer to offer its full potential in pictorial fine art photography. Adotech IV is that developer that leads this outstanding film to its optimal performance.
Of course such a high-tech developer is more expensive than a standard mass volume simple BW developer recipe. Because
- many, many years of expensive R&D were needed for that product
- it is a niche product, produced in much, much lower volumes than the standard BW developers.
Therefore comparing the price of Adotech to normal developers is unfair.

But there is an even more important aspect: The value you get!
I have tested this film really intensively in my photographic test lab. And I even reached the diffraction limit (!!) at f5.6 with this film. No other film and no other sensor can do that!!
With CMS 20 II in 35mm I have surpassed Fomapan 100 in 4x5" (!!).
With CMS 20 II in 120 you surpass every other standard BW film in 4x5" in detail rendition. You get large format quality with rollfilm.
And on that fact your financial considerations have to be focussed:
CMS 20 II 120, developed in Adotech IV, is much cheaper per shot than 4x5" normal BW film.

Therefore in the end CMS 20 II / Adotech has an excellent price-performance ratio and can even safe you money. With it in 120 you get large format quality, but at significantly lower price and all the advantages medium format film cameras are offering compared to LF.

Best regards,
Henning
 

miha

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Henning Serger said:
With it in 120 you get large format quality
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I'm glad it works for you but I never cared for spectral response / tonality this film has to offer. I would say very much a matter of personal taste.
 

Sal Santamaura

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Andrew O'Neill said:
That's good news. Hopefully CMS 20 will follow...
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Andrew O'Neill said:
...Looking for a Adotech IV sub is just so that I can save me pennies!...
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I'm also looking forward to 120 CMS 20II. However, my wish is that ADOX simply release larger bottles of Adotech IV at the same time (250ml? 500ml?). While that would still be a relatively expensive developer, reduced packaging cost has the potential to bring down the price. My results with this combination in 35mm are as good as Henning says they are for him.
 

Henning Serger

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miha said:
I'm glad it works for you but I never cared for spectral response / tonality this film has to offer. I would say very much a matter of personal taste.
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The spectral sensitivity of CMS 20 II is orthopanchromatic, so red is rendered darker compared to panchromatic films.
But you have a clear separation of red to black with this film, because red is not rendered black.
In landscape and architecture photography - which are definitely two genres in which this film really shines - the difference between an orthopanchromatic film and a panchromatic film is negligible, because red is generally not a dominant colour in these two genres. Most photographers will certainly have severe difficulties in a blind test to identify which landscape/architecture photos are from a panchromatic, and which are from an orthopanchromatic film.

I have used CMS 20 II also in portrait and fashion photography. There I indeed liked that red lips are rendered a little bit darker. Concerning colours of dresses it only matters with red dresses, and whether you want to have rendered it darker or not.

Best regards,
Henning
 

miha

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@Henning Serger admittedly I have never used this film myself, however I have yet to see a picture made with it that would please me tonality-wise.
 
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Henning Serger

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miha said:
@Henning Serger admittedly I have never use this film myself, however I have yet to see a picture made with it that would please me tonality-wise.
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Ah, o.k..
The reason could be that most pictures of it published online are developed not in Adotech, but other developers.
And most users have not tested the characteristic curve, and therefore get a sub-optimal or bad cc (well, that is of course a general and very wide spread problem in BW film photography, as we see daily here on photrio in the BW subforum with all kinds of films and developers).
And for optimal tonality you definitely have to use an E.I. of 6 to 9. With 20 you will loose shadow detail. But for certain applications you can reduce or avoid that loss at higher E.I. by using a fill-in flash.
I've seen so much "raping" of this film online.....it's so sad. This film has so much potential. But it is definitely not a film for beginners or photographers with the "lomography" approach.

Well, some time ago we had here the idea of a bigger photrio-meeting in Europe. I would be willing to organise that in Northern Germany. I also have infrastructure like a big photostudio with lab which would be helpful for such a meeting.
Then real silver-halide prints could be presented at such an event, including those from such outstanding films like CMS 20 II.
I am organising such regional (Northern Germany) photographer meetings for 15 years now, and it is always very informative and lots of fun. If there is interest from other European countries, maybe we could do a photrio-event every two years......there are also lots of excellent photo-spots here in my area.........well, just an idea.

Best regards,
Henning
 

miha

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"Lomography approach" might very well be the case, but even well exposed examples allegedly developed in Adotech don't ring my bell, sorry.

As to the meetings you organize, how many participants do they attract normally?
 

Ernst-Jan

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Disconnekt

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Adox just announced on their IG that CHS 100 II 120 is back in stock at Fotoimpex
 

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Henning Serger

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miha said:
As to the meetings you organize, how many participants do they attract normally?
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It differs. Interest has recently increased, currently almost 30 photographers are in the group which is regularly invited. Of course not all can come to every meeting. Some have re-discovered film, some have never stopped using it, some are pure enthusiast / amateurs, other semi-professionals, former full-time professionals and also photobook authors are in the group.

Best regards,
Henning
 

Henning Serger

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Ernst-Jan said:
Anyhow, I'm (still) up for that! If I'm right, you're somewhere near Hannover? If I can somehow help, let me know.
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Yes, it would be in Hannover. Because there we would have all the needed infrastructure, rooms, studio, lab(s), wonderful photospots etc.
Also excellent transport connections, easy to come to Hannover by train, car, airplane.
Help is of course very welcome . But first we have to evaluate whether there is interest. But not here in this thread......

Best regards,
Henning
 

Henning Serger

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It clearly shows what I have explained above: The results with conventional developers are sub-optimal, and you cannot exploit the full potential of the film. The results I get with Adotech IV are significantly better.

Best regards,
Henning
 
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