Adox CHS 100 & CMS 20 in 120 availability projections

tballphoto · Nov 19, 2021

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Sal Santamaura said:
This entire naive rant displays an incredible lack of thought. Did you become a PHOTRIO member to trash ADOX while photographing with your DSLR? How many DSLR units were sold to cover the development costs of those cameras? How much capital was available to Canikon for funding that development?

Those who rant about lack of 120 CHS 100 and CMS 20 ought show up at Bad Saarow with a truckload of backing paper, a comprehensive set of tools along with immense electromechanical expertise, and get the damn finishing equipment running on a volunteer basis. Otherwise, I'd suggest they quietly purchase someone else's film.

Pointing out the defects of a persons arguments is not trashing them, getting this defensive on your part makes you look rather loony and unhinged. Sort of like a toddler demanding the larger cupcake..

I work with expensive equipment, i also happen to work with engineers who cant comprehend something as simple as DIMENSIONAL TOLERANCES I also work with engineers with 20 to 30 years of experience who cannot comprehend that its better to take 5 hours to have mold set up shut down a press, and replace an ejector pin in cavity 4, instead of running the press and having to through out EVERY part from cavity 4, in a 4 cavity die.

I work with licensced industrial mechanics,,, fully trained and graduated from the apprentice and journey man crap. MOST trained in the last 10 years go instantly to "its a computer problem" and just screw things up, or just cant figure out why the machine work work and blame the operator. The ones trained BEFORE 2008 all look at the machine first and are normally able to go "yeah dumbass, you got a piece of flash stuck in front of the sensor" instead of acting like the new kids who spend an hour working with a computer to see that sensor 4 is blocked.

MattKing · Nov 19, 2021

There is a very important difference between having the technological capacity to do something, and the technological capacity to do something economically.
Well modern films are better, modern papers and inks have turned out to be very problematic when pressed into contact with modern film emulsions - and the costs of adapting to those changes are larger than modern film production can swallow.

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 19, 2021

topKam said:
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Pointing out the defects of a persons arguments is not trashing them, getting this defensive on your part makes you look rather loony and unhinged. Sort of like a toddler demanding the larger cupcake..

I work with expensive equipment, i also happen to work with engineers who cant comprehend something as simple as DIMENSIONAL TOLERANCES I also work with engineers with 20 to 30 years of experience who cannot comprehend that its better to take 5 hours to have mold set up shut down a press, and replace an ejector pin in cavity 4, instead of running the press and having to through out EVERY part from cavity 4, in a 4 cavity die.

I work with licensced industrial mechanics,,, fully trained and graduated from the apprentice and journey man crap. MOST trained in the last 10 years go instantly to "its a computer problem" and just screw things up, or just cant figure out why the machine work work and blame the operator. The ones trained BEFORE 2008 all look at the machine first and are normally able to go "yeah dumbass, you got a piece of flash stuck in front of the sensor" instead of acting like the new kids who spend an hour working with a computer to see that sensor 4 is blocked.

I will say this again, in a different way ... get your ego out of the way and APPRECIATE the very existence of ADOX.

Sal Santamaura · Nov 19, 2021

topKam said:
Pointing out the defects of a persons arguments...

Except your rant didn't point out defects. It instead merely exhibited a completely naive approach to reality.

topKam said:
...getting this defensive on your part makes you look rather loony and unhinged. Sort of like a toddler demanding the larger cupcake...

Let's get one thing clear. I have no connection to ADOX other than as a satisfied customer. And I wasn't so much "defending" ADOX as pointing out how loony your unhinged post was.

topKam said:
...I work with expensive equipment, i also happen to work with engineers who cant comprehend something as simple as DIMENSIONAL TOLERANCES I also work with engineers with 20 to 30 years of experience who cannot comprehend that its better to take 5 hours to have mold set up shut down a press, and replace an ejector pin in cavity 4, instead of running the press and having to through out EVERY part from cavity 4, in a 4 cavity die...

Bully for you. There are practitioners in every field, engineering and whatever you claim to be included, who aren't real experts. None of that has anything to do with ADOX and 120 film. I'm beginning to wonder if your newly registered membership isn't just a second account from this forum's other self-proclaimed "great, most-intelligent-ever expert."

topKam said:
...I work with licensced industrial mechanics,,, fully trained and graduated from the apprentice and journey man crap. MOST trained in the last 10 years go instantly to "its a computer problem" and just screw things up, or just cant figure out why the machine work work and blame the operator. The ones trained BEFORE 2008 all look at the machine first and are normally able to go "yeah dumbass, you got a piece of flash stuck in front of the sensor" instead of acting like the new kids who spend an hour working with a computer to see that sensor 4 is blocked.

Apparently you know everything about everything better than anyone else. During the 35 years I spent as an engineer at major manufacturing corporations, the most valuable thing I learned to say was "I don't know." You might consider trying that when faced with business factors apparently outside your grasp.

MattKing said:
There is a very important difference between having the technological capacity to do something, and the technological capacity to do something economically.
Well modern films are better, modern papers and inks have turned out to be very problematic when pressed into contact with modern film emulsions - and the costs of adapting to those changes are larger than modern film production can swallow.

Matt's a former lawyer who either learned during his career or knew beforehand, which might have been a factor in his selecting that line of work, how to be diplomatic. Upon retirement I consciously abandoned whatever shred of diplomacy that was necessary to survive when working. Thus I have no reticence about calling out naive, pushy know-it-all behavior when seeing it.

tballphoto · Nov 19, 2021

Sal Santamaura said:
Except your rant didn't point out defects. It instead merely exhibited a completely naive approach to reality.Let's get one thing clear. I have no connection to ADOX other than as a satisfied customer. And I wasn't so much "defending" ADOX as pointing out how loony your unhinged post was.Bully for you. There are practitioners in every field, engineering and whatever you claim to be included, who aren't real experts. None of that has anything to do with ADOX and 120 film. I'm beginning to wonder if your newly registered membership isn't just a second account from this forum's other self-proclaimed "great, most-intelligent-ever expert."Apparently you know everything about everything better than anyone else. During the 35 years I spent as an engineer at major manufacturing corporations, the most valuable thing I learned to say was "I don't know." You might consider trying that when faced with business factors apparently outside your grasp.Matt's a former lawyer who either learned during his career or knew beforehand, which might have been a factor in his selecting that line of work, how to be diplomatic. Upon retirement I consciously abandoned whatever shred of diplomacy that was necessary to survive when working. Thus I have no reticence about calling out naive, pushy know-it-all behavior when seeing it.

Since im arguing with you and "matt", then i can be assured im not a duplicate account of either of this forums self appointed gods of knowledge.

MattKing · Nov 19, 2021

Am I going to have to edit this thread too?
Discussions supporting one's point of view and countering the discussions of others are fine.
Personal attacks are inappropriate.
Stop personalizing things, and refrain from responding in kind!

Sal Santamaura · Nov 19, 2021

MattKing said:
Am I going to have to edit this thread too?...

I don't know, Matt, that's up to you. The decision is one of many "benefits" that accrue to being a moderator.

MattKing said:
...Personal attacks are inappropriate...

You might not consider flagrant denigration of ADOX and engineers to be personal attacks. I do.

MattKing said:
...Stop personalizing things, and refrain from responding in kind!

When the attacks are personal, and permitted to stand, why would responses in kind not be allowed?

AgX · Nov 20, 2021

tballphoto said:
Think of it this way, if a company can get the waxy paper to cover a roll of toilet paper, they can get the paper to do the ends on a 220 roll

Never ever saw such paper over here. Maybe this tells something about the photochemical industry here...

Sal Santamaura · Nov 20, 2021

Sal Santamaura said:
...I'm beginning to wonder if your newly registered membership isn't just a second account from this forum's other self-proclaimed "great, most-intelligent-ever expert."...

tballphoto said:
Since im arguing with you and "matt", then i can be assured im not a duplicate account of either of this forums self appointed gods of knowledge.

Well, well, from "topKam" with just a few posts in a few days to "tballphoto" with 200+ over eight months, just like that. Who knows when yet another user ID will be merged.

ADOX Fotoimpex · Nov 23, 2021

MattKing said:
And to replicate those machines now, in a form that would work with modern films, and available backing paper, at production volumes that would permit making a profit, will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

In the 1900´s film was spooled using manual labour. You can still look at this in the industry museum in Wolfen. I was a witness of these processes in the former efke and Forte factories. The gear used was in fact of low technological challenge. However this was compensated by training of the respective women spooling the film.
Today this is not an option due to much increased labour costs and lack of workers willing to work in the total darkness.
Apart from this to rely on the skills of changing people working in total darkness will never comply with our internal QC standards.

The reason why we built the smallest fully integrated film factory from scratch in a country like Germany is to be able to provide quality products at a working but not prohibitively high prices in a sustainable manner.
We do not really want to sacrifise on any of this.
This is why it is interesting for us to keep solving technological challenges at the speed that we can afford and once we do, implement and maintain this channel.

If we were to give films to spool somewhere else they would be available but can we guarantee their availability tomorrow? No, we could not.

Thus I can only repeat myself: Trust in us and keep supporting us by buying the materials which are there. We will bring new formats and products step by step. The next to come (back) and being internally manufactured (as opposed to sourced out) is Super8 film.
On the 120 machine we just worked yesterady. The roadmap is to get one out of 5 machines back to running state with the old controllers and then re-engineer two other ones with modern controllers whilst keeping the old ones for mechanical spares.
We plan to release one 120 film from the old machine if economically sustainable but we might have to wait for the more reliable new controllers to achive a working wage to output relation.

Deleted member 88956 · Nov 23, 2021

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
In the 1900´s film was spooled using manual labour. You can still look at this in the industry museum in Wolfen. I was a witness of these processes in the former efke and Forte factories. The gear used was in fact of low technological challenge. However this was compensated by training of the respective women spooling the film.
Today this is not an option due to much increased labour costs and lack of workers willing to work in the total darkness.
Apart from this to rely on the skills of changing people working in total darkness will never comply with our internal QC standards.

The reason why we built the smallest fully integrated film factory from scratch in a country like Germany is to be able to provide quality products at a working but not prohibitively high prices in a sustainable manner.
We do not really want to sacrifise on any of this.
This is why it is interesting for us to keep solving technological challenges at the speed that we can afford and once we did implement and maintain this channel.

If we were to give films to spool somewhere else they would be available but can we guarantee their availability tomorrow? No, we could not.

Thus I can only repeat myself: Trust in us and keep supporting us by buying the materials which are there. We will bring new formats and products step by step. The next to come (back) and being internally manufactured (as opposed to sourced out) is Super8 film.
On the 120 machine we just worked yesterady. The roadmap is to get one out of 5 machines back to running state with the old controllers and then re-engineer two other ones with modern controllers whilst keeping the old ones for mechanical spares.
We plan to release one 120 film from the old machine if economically sustainable but we might have to wait for the more reliable new controllers to achive a working wage to output relation.

Super8 - that should help revive some great memories from the past.

Your thorough updates are much appreciated too. And interesting to read all the same.

pentaxuser · Nov 23, 2021

I am confused. Some of the quotes are from someone called topKam who seems to have disappeared from this thread but they seem to be the exact same quotes that originate from tballphoto? I note that the latter is subject of a separate thread from Sean which may or may not be connected.

I can't have been the only person to have spotted this but no-one else seems to need to ask for clarification so am I missing something that is not a puzzle for everyone else?

pentaxuser

MattKing · Nov 23, 2021

pentaxuser said:
I am confused. Some of the quotes are from someone called topKam who seems to have disappeared from this thread but they seem to be the exact same quotes that originate from tballphoto? I note that the latter is subject of a separate thread from Sean which may or may not be connected.

I can't have been the only person to have spotted this but no-one else seems to need to ask for clarification so am I missing something that is not a puzzle for everyone else?

pentaxuser

topKam was one of many aliases used by tballphoto.
When we realize someone is doing this, we (actually Sean) switch all the posts made under alias to the original name, and then applies whatever super-moderator remedies to that name.
Please reassure me pentaxuser that there is only one of you!

Tom Kershaw · Nov 23, 2021

MattKing said:
Please reassure me pentaxuser that there is only one of you!

There is another Tom Kershaw who does photography and design work. https://www.kershaw.design/

pentaxuser · Nov 23, 2021

MattKing said:
topKam was one of many aliases used by tballphoto.
When we realize someone is doing this, we (actually Sean) switch all the posts made under alias to the original name, and then applies whatever super-moderator remedies to that name.
Please reassure me pentaxuser that there is only one of you!

Thanks, Matt. So my understanding from the above is that the respondent who presumably recalls that particular alias decided to refer to tballphoto by one of his known previous aliases but tballphoto has decided or been mandated under his restricted access to remain in the future as tballphoto?

Crikey, it gets complicated. As far as reassuring you of my uniqueness, I do so categorically and unequivocally and it even appears that any confusion by a few members that I and pentaxpete may be interchangeable names now seems to be understood. We are definitely two people but if I may speak for both of us, I'd like to say we are both fine upstanding fellows

pentaxuser

flavio81 · Nov 23, 2021

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
Film prices today are at about the same level than in the 80ies if you factor in inflation but costs per piece are much higher than they were back then when we made hundreds of millions of pieces.

This is a key point, very important.

Thanks ADOX Fotoimpex.

MattKing · Nov 23, 2021

pentaxuser said:
Thanks, Matt. So my understanding from the above is that the respondent who presumably recalls that particular alias decided to refer to tballphoto by one of his known previous aliases but tballphoto has decided or been mandated under his restricted access to remain in the future as tballphoto?

Nope.
If you open up multiple accounts with Photrio, under different user names (aliases) you are breaking the rules.
In most cases people do this to avoid bans and other moderator actions.
When we catch this, we change all the problematic user names back to one, all the posts made by the same person under the various names now show under that single name, and we apply moderation resources to that named user.

pentaxuser · Nov 23, 2021

MattKing said:
Nope.
If you open up multiple accounts with Photrio, under different user names (aliases) you are breaking the rules.
In most cases people do this to avoid bans and other moderator actions.
When we catch this, we change all the problematic user names back to one, all the posts made by the same person under the various names now show under that single name, and we apply moderation resources to that named user.

Thanks Matt. So I take it from the above quote that tballphoto did not decide to stick with tballphoto but used other names and the counter measure by Photrio was to label said person with his original name each time he did this. Makes sense but it would seem that said person can continue to use any other name he wants to deliberately fool Photrio and Photrio's only retaliation that is possible is to relabel each of the other names by the original name

It would seem that Photrio has to indulge said person's tactics or is that choose to indulge said person's tactics on the grounds that it is better to know where and when such a person is masquerading as another rather than attempt an outright ban which actually makes it easier for said person to "operate underground" so to speak

Presumably Sean's thread was to serve notice on said person that now the whole of Photrio is being invited to report any further problems from said person operating "incognito" by the adoption of other names such that any and every further transgression will result in his "outing" by Photrio relabelling him as tballphoto

The only concern is presumably that should he not change his behaviour and decide instead to adopt a "last man standing" strategy and not change his behaviour then all that's left is the ultimate sanction which is the "ignore" strategy by 100% of members.

pentaxuser

MattKing · Nov 23, 2021

The moderation team has a number of tools which can be used to restrict the activities of problematic members, extending to an outright posting ban.

unityofsaints · Dec 5, 2021

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
Thus I can only repeat myself: Trust in us and keep supporting us by buying the materials which are there. We will bring new formats and products step by step. The next to come (back) and being internally manufactured (as opposed to sourced out) is Super8 film.
On the 120 machine we just worked yesterady. The roadmap is to get one out of 5 machines back to running state with the old controllers and then re-engineer two other ones with modern controllers whilst keeping the old ones for mechanical spares.
We plan to release one 120 film from the old machine if economically sustainable but we might have to wait for the more reliable new controllers to achive a working wage to output relation.

Thanks for the update, much appreciated! Would you be willing to share which emulsion would be released first (on the old machine) if all goes to plan?

Helge · Dec 5, 2021

unityofsaints said:
Thanks for the update, much appreciated! Would you be willing to share which emulsion would be released first (on the old machine) if all goes to plan?

The only one that would make sense would be HR-50, since all the rebranded Aviphot “Rollei” 120 films have very spotty QC, mottling and black spots still being rampant.
We don’t really need CMS 20 II or any of the other fine ADOX emulsions in 120.

markjwyatt · Dec 5, 2021

Helge said:
The only one that would make sense would be HR-50, since all the rebranded Aviphot “Rollei” 120 films have very spotty QC, mottling and black spots still being rampant.
We don’t really need CMS 20 II or any of the other fine ADOX emulsions in 120.

Once they can make 120, I suspect more than one emulsion could be available.

Helge · Dec 5, 2021

markjwyatt said:
Once they can make 120, I suspect more than one emulsion could be available.

“We plan to release one 120 film from the old machine if economically sustainable”

markjwyatt · Dec 5, 2021

Helge said:
“We plan to release one 120 film from the old machine if economically sustainable”

ah. Details.

Deleted member 88956 · Dec 5, 2021

Helge said:
The only one that would make sense would be HR-50, since all the rebranded Aviphot “Rollei” 120 films have very spotty QC, mottling and black spots still being rampant.
We don’t really need CMS 20 II or any of the other fine ADOX emulsions in 120.

Who does not need CMS 20 II? I cannot wait to get it. But it is CHS 100 II that ought to be priority.

Adox CHS 100 & CMS 20 in 120 availability projections

tballphoto

MattKing

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Sal Santamaura

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Tom Kershaw

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Helge

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Deleted member 88956

Adox CHS 100 & CMS 20 in 120 availability projections

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