Adox CHS 100 & CMS 20 in 120 availability projections

[Andrew O'Neill]

Here endith this thread.

 

[removed account4]

I don't own it, but some threads have very specific purpose, as this one has. ADOX generously comes back with quite detailed response on the matter, but that was still not good enough to figure it may perhaps be left alone and not taken in a squarely unintended direction.

sometimes threads take on a life and direction of their own, it's called "thread drift"

 

[pentaxuser]

sometimes threads take on a life and direction of their own, it's called "thread drift"

Yes this is almost inevitable and often but not always can be useful. Here the dialogue was exclusively on the subject until #11 when effectively it had finished for the OP with a satisfactory answer from ADOX as far as he was concerned and whose attention to the OP's needs was admirable so I am puzzled as to why he had a problem when it began to drift as he had his answer and was already satisfied.

OP, I could understand your concern had the thread drifted away from the start and you were getting nothing useful but it didn't. You like all other members have to decide when the thread you started has finished as far as you are concerned. Once that stage has been reached either the moderators and Sean establish a rule that says the OP can lock a thread when he /she decides is appropriate or we accept that threads will inevitably take the course that this one and most others have taken or so it seems to me.

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

Just don't bring up pizza.
(that is a reference to another thread that hasn't drifted - it has set sail!).

 

[markjwyatt]

As if Mirko didn't already know that there's demand for 120 ADOX film.

An occasional gentle reminder doesn't hurt.

 

[pentaxuser]

Just don't bring up pizza.
.

Why, is it that bad as a food that users need to be told not to do this?

pentaxuser

 

[DMJ]

Just don't bring up pizza.
(that is a reference to another thread that hasn't drifted - it has set sail!).

And don't upload a picture of a steak. I'm vegan and find it highly offensive.

 

[Photomultiplier]

Film prices today are at about the same level than in the 80ies if you factor in inflation but costs per piece are much higher than they were back then when we made hundreds of millions of pieces. As a manufacturer we are still counting pennies per roll in profit. And this only if all goes well and no mistakes occur. We are all using equipment built more than 20 years ago, often 40 years ago and sometimes 60+ years ago by letting it simply run. Else it would not be possible to offer film at such low prices. This however means in the counter conclusion that whenever a pice of equipment breaks it is (often) not financially feasable to repair it (not technologically) and the respective product simply gets canceled. The same is true if we have to substitute a chemical in an emulsion recipe. Our 120 spooling machine broke four years ago and we suddenly had to slit all materials ourselves due to market consolidation. An whilst we are aware that there is demand for 120 films still the costs of fixing it will (alyways) outrun any possible profit which we might (ever) make by manufacturing and selling 120 film @ 5-10 cents above costs. This is why we do not offer 120 film or other players does not supply enough consumer color film at present.
Still we at ADOX have great passion and we want to be able to manufacture 120 film in the future again. Therefore we invest all profits which we make in the FOTOIMPEX group to address such issues. But those profits must be earned before and then they can be "sacrificed" on projects like this. So the profitability of FOTOIMPEX is defining the investments we can undertake @ ADOX. Corona and the closure of the shop in Berlin by German officials without any compensation for medium sized businesses surely did not help in this respect. Since this summer we started again to work on "the beast" and we did progress a bit. We will also have another engineer on the team from mid November on. So we are moving and definitely faster now as well.

@ADOX Fotoimpex: Slightly offtopic, but as an engineer, i am wondering what's broken on your 120 machine? I haven't seen such a machine yet but i imagine it as a contraption worthy of beeing shown in the "Sendung mit der Maus" Info: that's a german childrens educational TV show where they show stuff like paperclip bending machines, screw machines,
putting-the-bristles-into-the-broomstick machines and others that are highly complicated and work at high speed.

I am a bit interested because i did a lot of repair work on obsolete equipment with no spares available (and enjoyed it). Mainly old electronic measurement equipment and manufacturing machines. Often at the circuit board level and with in-house manufactured spare parts.
It was a pleasure to see the 4ton cnc lathe from 1983 coming back to life after doing brain surgery on its control computer The heaviest piece of machinery i ever worked on.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'm vegan and find it highly offensive.

Isn't there a little conflict with being vegan and using gelatin-based film and paper for photography? Gelatin is made from animal bones, animals that wouldn't exist if they hadn't been raised for meat or milk production. Plant-based gelatins are available (agar is the number one example, from seaweed), but it's my understanding it's too soft for photo emulsions.

Or do you shoot collodion and print on cyanotype or salt print or VDB or kallitype or platinum with paper sized only with starch? And use a camera with no leather bellows?

 

[DMJ]

Isn't there a little conflict

A conflict indeed. Would you like to start a thread? The OP disapproves "drifting" from the topic.

 

[Donald Qualls]

As an omnivore, I don't have a conflict. I was just asking.

 

[DMJ]

As an omnivore, I don't have a conflict. I was just asking.

You are a little confused with the terminology. We are all omnivorous; humans are omnivorous and I don't have a conflict either but some people do. If you want to learn more start a thread, otherwise why ask?

 

[NedL]

No, there is not.
That is the honest answer. We are working on it, but we cannot give a reliable assessment about the timeline. ....

Thank you very much for the honest assessment, it is very much appreciated. I know I'm not alone wishing you well and looking forward to someday getting CHS100 in 120 again. Best to everyone at Adox.

 

[takilmaboxer]

I used my last sheets of CHS 100 while munching on a burger. It was delicious. Had to wash my hands before developing the film.... We all need to get used to the idea that film photography may be much more expensive in the future due to supply and demand realities. Pennies a roll in profit is not sustainable.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

I used my last sheets of CHS 100 while munching on a burger. It was delicious. Had to wash my hands before developing the film.... We all need to get used to the idea that film photography may be much more expensive in the future due to supply and demand realities. Pennies a roll in profit is not sustainable.

Making/confectioning sheet film is far less complex and profits are higher. It is mainly 120 that has become pain in the neck. Hopefully there is a long term solution to this problem and the tunnel is not that long before we see daylight again.

 

[takilmaboxer]

I agree. 120 has always been my favorite format, although I've been shooting more 35 these days because my wife owns a junk store and we have been gifted many an older SLR by people who say "they don't make film any more, here's a free camera". I'm still waiting for a donation of a Blad or a B&J 8X10 I'm happy to say we've also sold many of those old SLRs to college kids who want to explore the world beyond Holgas.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'm happy to say we've also sold many of those old SLRs to college kids who want to explore the world beyond Holgas.

You should price in a roll of Superia Xtra or Gold 200 with each camera. Just to get them started...

 

[tballphoto]

No, there is not.
That is the honest answer. We are working on it, but we cannot give a reliable assessment about the timeline. As producing 120 film is really extremely complex, difficult and on a very high technology level. Especially if you want to offer very high quality, which is our aim.
Lots has changed in the last years in the industry in the supply chain. We have to do much much more in-house by our own now. And that is very challenging for a very small and kind of "start-up" company like we are.
And the pandemic has caused lots of new problems and challenges.

ADOX - Innovation in Analog Photography.
THE BEST THINGS IN LIFE ARE ANALOG.

To play devils advocate, and to put the whole specter of the complexity of making spooled rolls of film into perspective.

The film manufacturers were able to make roll film in the 1900 to 1930 range without a huge amount of problems. The mechanical complexity is there, but those machines WORKED well without a single bit of electronics.

SO just how are we expected to believe that your 120 machines are being held together with chicken wire an bubble gum wrappers, and held up by electronics...

Counterpoint on implied complexity of products,, look at the gillette adjustable razor known as the fat boy. Its a magnificient piece of shaving machine. Sold for 2 dollars in the 1960s. At a break even profit, the profit was in gillette razor blades. Make a blade for 1 penny, sell it for 10 pennies. Anyways, 10 years ago a businessman went to an aerospace company that makes custom components for nasa and the regular jet engine industry, and were told it would cost 1,000$ per piece to make. They were actually SHOCKED when told how many gillette made back in the day. Technology does NOT mean improvemetns.

 

[MattKing]

The film manufacturers were able to make roll film in the 1900 to 1930 range without a huge amount of problems. The mechanical complexity is there, but those machines WORKED well without a single bit of electronics.

And to replicate those machines now, in a form that would work with modern films, and available backing paper, at production volumes that would permit making a profit, will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

[tballphoto]

And to replicate those machines now, in a form that would work with modern films, and available backing paper, at production volumes that would permit making a profit, will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

modern film is better, modern paper is better.

Think of it this way, if a company can get the waxy paper to cover a roll of toilet paper, they can get the paper to do the ends on a 220 roll

 

[Deleted member 88956]

modern film is better, modern paper is better.

Think of it this way, if a company can get the waxy paper to cover a roll of toilet paper, they can get the paper to do the ends on a 220 roll

I have to say the simplicity of your logic cannot explain complexity of the problem.

you are effectively saying one od these things:

1. ADOX is so inept they cannot make a roll of toilet paper, or
2. ADOX is lying about the problem at hand,

ADOX has a great product line. It is surely one of the very few promoters and supporters of analog photography. And if you do shoot film you better appreciate what ADOX means to film based photography.

 

[Helge]

HR-50 in 120 would be wonderful.
Foma makes good film, but they sure as hell can’t reliably roll backing paper on Aviphot.
I’m tired of not being able to figure which of the made up brands Ilford is confectioning this month.

Just a thought: Would it be possible to buy time on Fomas machine and supply your own backing paper and engineer?
They are in the EU after all. That could make it profitable.

 

[AgX]

The film manufacturers were able to make roll film in the 1900 to 1930 range without a huge amount of problems. The mechanical complexity is there, but those machines WORKED well without a single bit of electronics.

Film conversion and packaging long time was made by girls working in the dark.

 

[removedacct1]

modern film is better, modern paper is better.

Think of it this way, if a company can get the waxy paper to cover a roll of toilet paper, they can get the paper to do the ends on a 220 roll

Amazingly naive response.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

To play devils advocate, and to put the whole specter of the complexity of making spooled rolls of film into perspective.

The film manufacturers were able to make roll film in the 1900 to 1930 range without a huge amount of problems. The mechanical complexity is there, but those machines WORKED well without a single bit of electronics.

SO just how are we expected to believe that your 120 machines are being held together with chicken wire an bubble gum wrappers, and held up by electronics...

This entire naive rant displays an incredible lack of thought. Did you become a PHOTRIO member to trash ADOX while photographing with your DSLR? How many DSLR units were sold to cover the development costs of those cameras? How much capital was available to Canikon for funding that development?

Those who rant about lack of 120 CHS 100 and CMS 20 ought show up at Bad Saarow with a truckload of backing paper, a comprehensive set of tools along with immense electromechanical expertise, and get the damn finishing equipment running on a volunteer basis. Otherwise, I'd suggest they quietly purchase someone else's film.