ADOX chemistry security of supply

ADOX Fotoimpex · Apr 19, 2023

We have been asked many times over the past weeks if we are affected by the cease of manufacturing at Tetenals like most other large brands. While it is true that we used Tetenal in the past as a supplier of raw chemistry and volume mixings, we saw this coming and consequently shifted production into our own factory over the past two years. This means we manufacture all Adox chemistry products which are used in volumes (powder and liquid) in house since the first quarter of this year. However due to the unavailability of Ilford, Kodak, Tetenal and others demand is so strong at the time being that we cannot catch up on all products. On a parallel we are facing supply chain problems. We are working hard to ramp up the production and source chemicals in the needed volumes.
This posts intention is to communicate that we do not have a structural problem and Adox chemistry will be available for the future because we are fully independant from any other player in the industry.
This also makes us probably the last large brand where you can buy photo chemistry directly from the manufacturer with full support by the people who actually make what they sell

foc · Apr 19, 2023

Thank you for the update and explanation.
It's great to hear that an independent manufacturer in the film industry is doing well and I wish you the best.
And more importantly, I have purchased Adox Chemistry and will support continued success.

Ernst-Jan · Apr 19, 2023

Good for you, especially since I have understood chemicals have a higher profit than film and paper
The only chemicals I use that is not Adox, is Ilfosol 3 (my main developer) and occasional ID-11, the rest (stop, fix, paper dev, wash aid, wetting agent) is Adox.
Could FX39-II be compared with Ilfsol 3 maybe? In case that's not in stock when I need a new bottle?

Ivo Stunga · Apr 19, 2023

Adox - you're great and should know it, love your clear-base films

Kino · Apr 19, 2023

Thank you, it is good to hear directly from the source.

Wish you the best in ironing-out your supply issues.

Donald Qualls · Apr 19, 2023

Honesly, chemicals are the least of my worries -- I can get what I need to mix my own developers and fixer from non-photographic sources. But if I can't get film, it'll be time to start learning wet plate collodion...

koraks · Apr 19, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Honesly, chemicals are the least of my worries -- I can get what I need to mix my own developers and fixer from non-photographic sources.

Mostly agree, with the exception of color developers and in particular RA4 developer, which is challenging to get really right with materials I have access to as a consumer. Btw, I'm actually a bit surprised at the emphasis on all chemistry being manufactured by Adox in-house. I would have expected for instance RA4 developer to be bought ready to go from one of a number of available suppliers. I'd also like to highlight that while mixing it may be an in-house operation at Adox, synthesis of critical compounds like CD3 certainly won't be, and that makes them just as vulnerable as anyone else in sourcing this critical compound from the only nation that apparently still produces it: China. (I sometimes wonder how many firms in China actually still synthesize this, and if this number exceeds one).

Donald Qualls said:
But if I can't get film, it'll be time to start learning wet plate collodion...

That, and paper. Recently I was chatting with a retailer who is kind of frustrated at the lack of any Adox papers to sell. Demand is strong, even at substantially higher prices than what they retailed for back when they were still on offer. There seems to be a difference in opinion between him and Adox/Mirko on the viability of e.g. Polywarmtone in the marketplace and given the current supply and manufacturing complexities. Mind you - I can only comment on what I hear...

Donald Qualls · Apr 19, 2023

For large format, there are always alt-process printing methods -- Calotype/Talbotype, cyanotype, VDB, salt prints, platinum/palladium, carbon, gum -- there are even alternative sensitizers for those (vs. the potassium dichromate that will likely be impossible to get before too much longer). After all, photographers were making prints of their glass plates before dry gelatin emulsions were invented. If I can get film, I can even make enlarged negatives to print from (or abase myself and use digital negatives).

That said, a variable contrast paper with approximately ISO 6 speed is much more convenient to use than a UV-sensitive print I have to coat myself...

ooze · Apr 19, 2023

Tetenal has ceased manufacturing? I completely missed that news till now. Can't find a press release via Google. Is there a link?

miha · Apr 19, 2023

ooze said:
Tetenal has ceased manufacturing? I completely missed that news till now. Can't find a press release via Google. Is there a link?

Have a look at this recent thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...oduction-and-further-steps-of-tetenal.197408/

ooze · Apr 19, 2023

miha said:
Have a look at this recent thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...oduction-and-further-steps-of-tetenal.197408/

Thanks!

ADOX Fotoimpex · Apr 19, 2023

koraks said:
Mostly agree, with the exception of color developers and in particular RA4 developer, which is challenging to get really right with materials I have access to as a consumer. Btw, I'm actually a bit surprised at the emphasis on all chemistry being manufactured by Adox in-house. I would have expected for instance RA4 developer to be bought ready to go from one of a number of available suppliers. I'd also like to highlight that while mixing it may be an in-house operation at Adox, synthesis of critical compounds like CD3 certainly won't be, and that makes them just as vulnerable as anyone else in sourcing this critical compound from the only nation that apparently still produces it: China. (I sometimes wonder how many firms in China actually still synthesize this, and if this number exceeds one).

That, and paper. Recently I was chatting with a retailer who is kind of frustrated at the lack of any Adox papers to sell. Demand is strong, even at substantially higher prices than what they retailed for back when they were still on offer. There seems to be a difference in opinion between him and Adox/Mirko on the viability of e.g. Polywarmtone in the marketplace and given the current supply and manufacturing complexities. Mind you - I can only comment on what I hear...

We obviously do what someone like Tetenal has done before and anyone in the inudstry does. This means we do not manufacture raw chemicals like Hydroquinone or CD-3. We also do not blow our own bottles
You can always go in deeper. This thread makes specific reference to the current situation with the main producer of photochemicals in Europe going out of production.
I mentioned the sourcing problem. Tetenal was pulling a lot of photo chemicals into Europe. This channel has mostly dried up over the past months already. We need to re-establish these routes. This is not always easy because you cannot buy two Kilos in China or India. It´s a volume game.

I understand that some of our partners disagree about our decision not to continue the paper manufacturing but the investement necessary (finding, paying and training staff for about one to two years plus multiple test runs) does not seem to be recoverable from sales even if some fictional small amount of paper could be sold at prices higher than Multigrade Warmtone. We are currently not willing to take this upfront risk when making film (R&D for film by the way is financed from chemical sales) is about two times more productive and four times more profitable per coated sqm.
This is NOT a final decision. We simply postponed for now and wait how the market develops. To a certain degree it is also dependant on the recruiting situation because it is not easy to find people actually willing to work hands on.

ADOX Fotoimpex · Apr 19, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Honesly, chemicals are the least of my worries -- I can get what I need to mix my own developers and fixer from non-photographic sources. But if I can't get film, it'll be time to start learning wet plate collodion...

Donald, we finance our R&D for film currently from profits arising out of chemical manufacturing. So there is even something in it for you

Not everyone can mix his or her own chemicals. This would also not be advisable from a health and safety standpoint for everyone.
Handling pure chemicals is something different than diluting a mix which contains 3% of something with potential danger.

Kino · Apr 19, 2023

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
To a certain degree it is also dependant on the recruiting situation because it is not easy to find people actually willing to work hands on.

Oh! I am about to retire from 25+ years in a motion picture lab. Maybe you could hire me?
It would be a heck of a commute!

Donald Qualls · Apr 19, 2023

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
Donald, we finance our R&D for film currently from profits arising out of chemical manufacturing. So there is even something in it for you

Not everyone can mix his or her own chemicals. This would also not be advisable from a healt and safety standpoint for everyone.
Handling pure chemicals is something different than diluting a mix which contains 3% of something with potential danger.

You make a good point. I've got enough EcoPro on hand for the next year or more, but I'll very much consider switching to XT3 next time I need a top-tier, replenishable developer. I like the low-dust idea, and don't much care if it's borax/metaborate or something else providing the alklinity and buffering.

At my age (63) I'm much less worried about environmental hazard to myself than someone in their 20s should be (and probably isn't) -- but I'm very much interested in keeping film production running for at least the next twenty or so years.

koraks · Apr 19, 2023

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
you cannot buy two Kilos in China or India

Well, technically you can, but it's probably not attractive economically for a commercial operation like yours. For others, it may be a viable option. I do understand the complexities of re-sourcing materials though.

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
I understand that some of our partners disagree about our decision not to continue the paper manufacturing but the investement necessary (finding, paying and training staff for about one to two years plus multiple test runs) does not seem to be recoverable from sales even if some fictional small amount of paper could be sold at prices higher than Multigrade Warmtone.

Yes, I understand from my part. I think what might have created confusion is the suggestion that apparently existed that Adox is currently capable of coating relatively small batches. While that may technically still may be true, your response illustrates the limitations of such logic, underlining the fact that asset specificity and hence long-term investments underlie a more agile production philosophy, rendering it effectively moot for the most part. Personally I think that's regrettable (and this is NOT an accusation to you or anyone - I understand the mechanisms involved quite well, I dare state), as I believe that the only way forward into the long-term future would be a fundamentally more agile production system for products like paper and film.

Steven Lee · Apr 19, 2023

As always, rooting for ADOX and continue to patiently wait for Freestyle to get FX-39 back in stock.

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
This also makes us probably the last large brand where you can buy photo chemistry directly from the manufacturer with full support by the people who actually make what they sell

What happened to Ilford?

MattKing · Apr 19, 2023

Steven Lee said:
As always, rooting for ADOX and continue to patiently wait for Freestyle to get FX-39 back in stock.

What happened to Ilford?

Their chemistry is/was manufactured by Tetenal.

Ivo Stunga · Apr 19, 2023

Last 5l of PQ Universal I bought has chrystals floating in it and I was wondering what's the cause for that all of a sudden. Works just fine and I guess it's related to Tetenal going out :/

Steven Lee · Apr 19, 2023

MattKing said:
Their chemistry is/was manufactured by Tetenal.

Thank you. I did not know. And what happens to their line of chemicals now if Tetenal is stopping production? Looks like I missed some massive news recently!

mshchem · Apr 20, 2023

Steven Lee said:
Thank you. I did not know. And what happens to their line of chemicals now if Tetenal is stopping production? Looks like I missed some massive news recently!

Adox?

mshchem · Apr 20, 2023

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
We obviously do what someone like Tetenal has done before and anyone in the inudstry does. This means we do not manufacture raw chemicals like Hydroquinone or CD-3. We also do not blow our own bottles
You can always go in deeper. This thread makes specific reference to the current situation with the main producer of photochemicals in Europe going out of production.
I mentioned the sourcing problem. Tetenal was pulling a lot of photo chemicals into Europe. This channel has mostly dried up over the past months already. We need to re-establish these routes. This is not always easy because you cannot buy two Kilos in China or India. It´s a volume game.

I understand that some of our partners disagree about our decision not to continue the paper manufacturing but the investement necessary (finding, paying and training staff for about one to two years plus multiple test runs) does not seem to be recoverable from sales even if some fictional small amount of paper could be sold at prices higher than Multigrade Warmtone. We are currently not willing to take this upfront risk when making film (R&D for film by the way is financed from chemical sales) is about two times more productive and four times more profitable per coated sqm.
This is NOT a final decision. We simply postponed for now and wait how the market develops. To a certain degree it is also dependant on the recruiting situation because it is not easy to find people actually willing to work hands on.

Smart decision on paper. However maybe converting some of the professional Fuji color materials (not crystal archive) would be possible???

I think you need to be number one in chemistry.

Find a spot here in the USA. We have a bottle plant here in Iowa City IA, they are situated next to a Proctor and Gamble plant, they blow a gazillion bottles a year.

University of Iowa has https://iti.uiowa.edu/

Integrated DNA technologies here about a mile from me. Lots of skilled manufacturing technology folks. There's a firm in Cedar Rapids that makes fancy stainless steel mixers, splitters etc for pharmaceutical companies.

Good airport, Interstate 80.

And it's inexpensive!! Regulations for chemicals, easy and sensible.

koraks · Apr 20, 2023

mshchem said:
However maybe converting some of the professional Fuji color materials (not crystal archive) would be possible???

Good point. Drop the plain CA in favor of DPII!

mshchem · Apr 20, 2023

koraks said:
Good point. Drop the plain CA in favor of DPII!

ADOX Fotoimpex · Apr 20, 2023

Steven Lee said:
As always, rooting for ADOX and continue to patiently wait for Freestyle to get FX-39 back in stock.

What happened to Ilford?

Except for Rodinal we can send most film developers from Europe- FX-39 for sure-. We have upped our service to the US. Things should arrive relatively fast and painless within a week.

ADOX chemistry security of supply

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