Adox ADOX Supersafe Darkroom Light

[sperera]

....so I just bought this. It's surprisingly really really small. I am wondering if safe as they claim with Ilford paper that asks for safelight 902 light brown. I could search on YouTube etc but I don't trust YouTubers much. People here know whats to know....here's the claim:

The safest darkroom lamp in the world. Suitable for direct lighting and much brighter than conventional lamps. The new ADOX Supersafe is manufactured according to our specifications in Germany and has an optimized red spectrum. It can be put into any holder (E14) and is therefore also suitable as a "replacement bulb" for a conventional AP or Paterson darkroom lamp. The red protective cap can then be omitted. Normal darkroom bulbs mask photo paper at a distance of 1.5 meters and directly illuminate it after about 3 minutes. With the new ADOX Supersafe, we couldn't measure a veil after 20 minutes under direct lighting (significantly brighter than light bulbs or conventional lamps) (Ilford and ADOX MCC). Foma is slightly worse but still excellent compared to light bulbs or AP/Paterson darkroom lamps.

 

[pentaxuser]

All red safe lights made for the darkroom are safe with any paper with the correct wattage for the distance they are away from the paper Ilford happened to make a 902 of light brown because (a) its own paper is safe with that colour and (b) the light it produces is said to be less tiring for the eye

The light brown 902 may not be safe with for instance Foma paper which needs a red safelight. At least that is my understanding of the situation

pentaxuser

 

[Ian Grant]

The 902/OC safelight filters are fine with Foma papers. It's a more pleasant light to work with.

Ian

 

[pentaxuser]

The 902/OC safelight filters are fine with Foma papers. It's a more pleasant light to work with.

Ian

Thanks Ian That's another myth busted and one unless I am mistaken repeated on several occasions here on Photrio. Otherwise I wonder where I picked it up?

pentaxuser

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I don't usually contradict Ian, but I've had fogging problems with Fomabrom 111, both VC and graded when using OC filters. I've switched to red in my darkroom just because of that.

As for testing your safelight, go here and get the Kodak pdf for the testing procedure: https://www.kodak.com/content/products-brochures/Film/KODAK-A-Guide-to-Darkroom-Illumination-K-4.pdf .

It's a bit involved, but is the best test you can do.

Best,

Doremus

 

[GregY]

I don't usually contradict Ian, but I've had fogging problems with Fomabrom 111, both VC and graded when using OC filters. I've switched to red in my darkroom just because of that.

As for testing your safelight, go here and get the Kodak pdf for the testing procedure: https://www.kodak.com/content/products-brochures/Film/KODAK-A-Guide-to-Darkroom-Illumination-K-4.pdf .

It's a bit involved, but is the best test you can do.

Best,

Doremus

Likewise. I switched from the Ilford Filters to red....

 

[pentaxuser]

My assumption is that Ian has only said what he said, having used a 902 safelight with Foma paper. Just speculating here but (a) is it possible that he has placed the 902 further away from the paper but at a distance which makes the 902 safe with Foma paper or (b) he has used a particular type of Foma paper that is OK with a 902?

What I hope to do to get to the bottom of this so anyone looking for a safelight does not have to spend money on two different types. Can there be a nuanced answer that covers this subject

We have several "NoNos" here on Photrio concerning light that is safe for colour; stand development; using acid fixers with staining developers to name but three

We are good at NoNos but much less so at producing nuanced answers

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

The reports I've seen indicate that some or all of the Foma papers have sensitivity that results in image degradation when a 902 or OC filter safelight with a white bulb is used in a configuration that would lead to no image degradation - ie. is "safe" - with Ilford papers.
Replacing that safelight with a red source that is also safe with Ilford paper can improve the situation - i.e. result in no image degradation with Foma papers.
If one lowers the light intensity far enough, one can work safely with any paper - it's just you won't necessarily be able to see enough to be able to work.
Those of us who work in non-ideal conditions and temporary darkrooms are probably more appreciative of higher levels of safe illumination. People like Drew whose darkrooms are permanent and well used and optimized for his use can probably do much better with illumination that is more dim.

 

[koraks]

What I hope to do to get to the bottom of this

Purchase a pack of Foma paper. Do rigorous testing. Compare the outcome of your tests to published filter curves for OC / 902 filters and see if everything adds up. If not, figure out why not. That's how you get to the bottom of this.

In my experience asking people to elaborate if they disagree is kind of unnecessary on any forum because they'll elaborate anyway. What's really tricky stuff is to get people to not elaborate, regardless whether they are in agreement. Then again, maybe that's one of the nice things of a forum. Another nice thing of a forum is that there's no end to it - there's never a final answer. If there were, we might as well have shut this one down by about 2003, printed in a big book and sell it off as the All-encompassing Definitive Analog Bible.

 

[sperera]

...the magic of analogue photography are the variables......not in terms to fog or not to fog though haha

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Iswitched to a very dim red safelight and it works for all papers for me. It needs getting used to but then...Of couse, thisdoesn't work for panchromatic film where only complete darkness is acceptable.

 

[Ian Grant]

I don't usually contradict Ian, but I've had fogging problems with Fomabrom 111, both VC and graded when using OC filters. I've switched to red in my darkroom just because of that.

As for testing your safelight, go here and get the Kodak pdf for the testing procedure: https://www.kodak.com/content/products-brochures/Film/KODAK-A-Guide-to-Darkroom-Illumination-K-4.pdf .

It's a bit involved, but is the best test you can do.

Best,

Doremus

Well to clarify I actually use Paterson/Photax safelights with copper brown VF filter domes, these were designed specifically for VC papers as well as fixed grade. I had assumed these were equivalent to an OC/902. But perhaps it's the Photax golden brown C dome that is the OC/902 equivalent.

I've been using these VF domes since around 1986/7 and have had no issues with any papers VC or graded, including Foma.

Paterson no longer make the full range of Photax safelight domes.

Ian

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Ian,

It could also be that only the Fomabrom 111 paper (FB glossy neutral.tone) has the extended sensitivity that makes it fog under OC safelight. Have you used that particular paper?

FWIW, my darkroom is fairly dim with Kodak bullets on pull-chains at the work stations (which are off most of the time) and on Kodak model D with a 15W bulb bounced from the white ceiling. That still fogged the Fomobrom 111 with just normal print exposure time. I even develop the paper emulsion-side-down for half the development time. Switching to red (Kodak 1A filters - light red - all around plus a red LED strip filtered with rubylith) solved the problem. 15 minutes of red exposure showed no fogging.

Best,

Doremus

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I also had fogging with Foma papers using an OC safelight. I now use a JR Lab 15 watt bulb and that fixed the paper fog issue.

 

[pentaxuser]

Well despite koraks pessimism expressed in #9 it appears that with Ian's reply and others' contributions I have got the the bottom of whether the Ilford 902 OC is safe for Foma papers

Sometimes pursuing what appears as a contradiction and asking questions does get to a useful answer

Thanks all

pentaxuser

 

[Ian Grant]

Ian,

It could also be that only the Fomabrom 111 paper (FB glossy neutral.tone) has the extended sensitivity that makes it fog under OC safelight. Have you used that particular paper?

FWIW, my darkroom is fairly dim with Kodak bullets on pull-chains at the work stations (which are off most of the time) and on Kodak model D with a 15W bulb bounced from the white ceiling. That still fogged the Fomobrom 111 with just normal print exposure time. I even develop the paper emulsion-side-down for half the development time. Switching to red (Kodak 1A filters - light red - all around plus a red LED strip filtered with rubylith) solved the problem. 15 minutes of red exposure showed no fogging.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus, after reading the Photax sheet on their safe-lights I concluded their Orange Red A dome was equivalent to a 1A, the Golden Brown C dome probably closer to an OC, they sold a B dome which was Yellow Green and the brightest, but I've never seen one. I have a Khaki D dome which is equivalent to a 10 for colour work, but I use Kodak Beehive.safelights with 10 & 10H filters for colour printing.

The VF dome has been fine with all papers including Fomabrom 111, but it is nowhere near as bright as the C dome, of course darkroom layout etc differ. I do use an Ilford 906 safelight for materials like Ilford Direct Positive paper.

Ian

 

[pentaxuser]

I wasn't sure what 10 or 10H filters were like so I googled them and lo and behold a 2016 Photrio post came up with many contributors such as Ian himself, the late PE, BMbikerider etc and the consensus, backed by PE was that the 10 and 10H filter are safe So a reasonable conclusion to me seemed to be that some safelights were safe for RA4

For the sake of balance there was one and only one post out of 18 that said that any light was a No No for colour

Much more recently a similar post drew almost universal condemnation for any safelight for colour paper?

Just an observation on my part

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

Of course, the 2016 RA4 paper was a lot different than the current versions.

 

[juan]

Higher silver content? /sarc

 

[MattKing]

Higher silver content? /sarc

Nope - higher sensitivity, and not designed primarily for exposure using tungsten/halogen light sources.
Also not designed primarily for optical exposure through negatives, although there remains substantial partial compatibility with that mode of use.

 

[koraks]

a 2016 Photrio post came up with many contributors such as Ian himself, the late PE, BMbikerider etc and the consensus, backed by PE was that the 10 and 10H filter are safe

This is the 2016 thread you appear to be referring to: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/wratten-10h-safelight-for-ra4-printing.135942/
And this is the recent one you contrasted it with: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ra4-safelight.205852/
Let people decide for themselves what take from these threads. I wouldn't go so far as to speak of 'consensus' in either case.

 

[Ian Grant]

I wasn't sure what 10 or 10H filters were like so I googled them and lo and behold a 2016 Photrio post came up with many contributors such as Ian himself, the late PE, BMbikerider etc and the consensus, backed by PE was that the 10 and 10H filter are safe So a reasonable conclusion to me seemed to be that some safelights were safe for RA4

For the sake of balance there was one and only one post out of 18 that said that any light was a No No for colour

Much more recently a similar post drew almost universal condemnation for any safelight for colour paper?

Just an observation on my part

pentaxuser

The Wratten 10 safelight filter was designed for indirect use with colour and panchromatic B&W papers. The 10H was tweaked for Ektacolour, but an old pre RA-4 version, around 1960.

Indirect mean no direct light from the safe-light should fall on the paper. In practice I use a 10 safe-light to illuminate my timer when processing RA-4 paper in my Nova slot processor. A Kodak Bee-hove safe-light is very directional so in a reasonable sized darkroom if pointed away from the enlarger/processor any indirect reflected light from a 10 filter is at an extremely low level, and totally safe.

One comment, the Paterson/Photax VF filter dome for VC papers is a similar output colour to a 10/10H just slightly brighter.

Ian

 

[khh]

This is the 2016 thread you appear to be referring to: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/wratten-10h-safelight-for-ra4-printing.135942/
And this is the recent one you contrasted it with: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/ra4-safelight.205852/
Let people decide for themselves what take from these threads. I wouldn't go so far as to speak of 'consensus' in either case.

I have an Osram Duka, a yellow LED safelight, the name of which currently escapes me, and a traditional red coated incandescent bulb in my darkroom. I'm in the process of securing some Fuji DPii photo paper, and intend to do a full light safety test with each of the light sources once it arrives, inspired by the discussion in the most recent thread there. Hopefully I'll be able to add to the conversation then.

 

[sperera]

I have an Osram Duka, a yellow LED safelight, the name of which currently escapes me, and a traditional red coated incandescent bulb in my darkroom. I'm in the process of securing some Fuji DPii photo paper, and intend to do a full light safety test with each of the light sources once it arrives, inspired by the discussion in the most recent thread there. Hopefully I'll be able to add to the conversation then.

Thank you very much for the input....look forward to results

 

[koraks]

Thank you very much for the input....look forward to results

Yes, me too. Although I would personally not bother testing this:

traditional red coated incandescent bulb

with DPII paper. It'll fog severely. After all, it's color paper, so sensitive to red.
The yellow safe lights will be more promising.

Make sure to test not just at what point the paper whites fog to cyan, but also (especially) at what point the color balance starts to shift. You can easily do this by exposing a sheet of paper to a negative in the dark, then cover part of the paper with a piece of opaque cardstock and turning on the safelight for the desired amount of time. You'll find that from a certain safelight exposure time onwards, the colors of the image become cooler/more cyan and slightly darker, while the borders still stay pure white. After a considerably longer exposure (2-3 stops above the color-shift threshold), the white border will also start to fog into cyan.