Adding Wetting Agent to Film Developer?

[hacked - sepiareverb]

I've been running the Rollei Pan and Ortho 25 films and getting airbells if I don't do a pre-wet with wetting agent (I use Sprint End Run). While running films today I wondered about just adding some End Run to the developer (Rodinal). Anybody tried something like this? Any known nasty incompatibilities?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Try presoaking in water.

Steve

 

[hacked - sepiareverb]

I was hoping to save some time, not necessarily some End Run.

 

[oistrakh]

You've done the "knocking the canister against the sink" trick?

 

[Sirius Glass]

You've done the "knocking the canister against the sink" trick?

Hard on one of those wood/linoleum cutting pads from an art store.

Steve

 

[2F/2F]

I've been running the Rollei Pan and Ortho 25 films and getting airbells if I don't do a pre-wet with wetting agent (I use Sprint End Run).

Since the OP has been doing this [I am assuming] successfully, does this mean that wetting agents really don't have any adverse effects on developers, as I have often heard claimed here on A.P.U.G.? (E.g. If you don't scrub the Photo-Flo off your reels with a tooth brush, your developer will be ruined in the next batch.)

 

[Q.G.]

I never had wetting agent ruin developer.

I had it make the stuff foam like crazy, rising up out of the tank.

Creating lots of bubbles (though of a different kind) to prevent the formation of bubbles? I don't know...
Do what Steve said: presoak in plain water.

 

[Martin Aislabie]

If you have a solution that works for you - then I would stick with it.

I do know that some developers such as ID11 have surface tension breakers included in them to overcome the uneven wetting issue.

I use ID11 and do know that when I look at the Dev left in the tank (I use a sort of dip & dunk line for sheet film) there is foam from the developer floating all over the surface.

Adding Wetting Agent will only accentuate the Developer foaming.

I have occasionally had a Neg escape from the cassette during developing and you can see uneven development quite clearly from where the top edge of it has sat in the foam.

So unless you have quite a bit of head room in your developing tank and are prepared to add plenty of extra developer to keep your Negs well below the foam line then I wouldn't bother

Just my $0.02

Martin

 

[Ian Grant]

I have to add wetting agent to my developer here in Turkey to prevent air bells, but the amount has to be minimal or you get foaming. I did visual tests 2 years ago and no amount of agitation, knocking/tapping the drum would dislodge them all. Pre soaking makes no difference either if the water is very hard.

Ian

 

[Athiril]

Since the OP has been doing this [I am assuming] successfully, does this mean that wetting agents really don't have any adverse effects on developers, as I have often heard claimed here on A.P.U.G.? (E.g. If you don't scrub the Photo-Flo off your reels with a tooth brush, your developer will be ruined in the next batch.)

lol what?

I've only ever just done a rinse before re-using, sometimes not even rinsed with water..

 

[Athiril]

I have to add wetting agent to my developer here in Turkey to prevent air bells, but the amount has to be minimal or you get foaming. I did visual tests 2 years ago and no amount of agitation, knocking/tapping the drum would dislodge them all. Pre soaking makes no difference either if the water is very hard.

Ian

What about (photographic) calgon?

 

[hacked - sepiareverb]

I've been running film the same way for 35 years, and haven't had airbells on anything but the Rollei/Adox microfilm type films that I've recently started working with (135, I should have mentioned that above, apologies). I knocked two tanks a LOT harder but still had airbells, less of them, but still there. Adding a water pre-wet didn't fix it, a distilled water pre-wet didn't fix it, but the End-Run (at 1/2 strength) did it. My hope was that adding End Run to the developer might save me some time- as the developer foams more anyway after the pre-wet. The fixer seems to even.

I have to add wetting agent to my developer here in Turkey to prevent air bells, but the amount has to be minimal or you get foaming. I did visual tests 2 years ago and no amount of agitation, knocking/tapping the drum would dislodge them all. Pre soaking makes no difference either if the water is very hard.

Ian

Glad to see someone else has done this with success. Are we taking a few drops of stock solution Ian or a few drops of working solution?

 

[Ian Grant]

What about (photographic) calgon?

I don't have access to it here, but I do have wetting agent. The other option is to used de-ionised water through out, but that's to expensive for the quantities I use and 2 drops wetting agent works perfectly.

Commercial developers use a chelating agent (Sodium Hexametaphosphate, EDTA or similar) or a long chain wetting agent that doesn't foam, sometimes both. All companies did a lot of research into this area in the 1930's particularly Agfa. (Some wetting agents also have useful anti-oxidant properties).

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

Glad to see someone else has done this with success. Are we taking a few drops of stock solution Ian or a few drops of working solution?

2 drops of dilute wetting agent in the working solution, but I don't use a commercial wetting agent so it'll vary depending on the product. It's minimal but enough to completely eliminate air bells.

When I tested visually with a film pre-soaking was not sufficient to eliminate air bells. You can get them during fixing as well.

Ian

 

[Stoo Batchelor]

sepiareverb

I followed Ian's advice on this very subject recently, and with great success. Using Fotospeed RA50 Rinse aid (dilution 1:200), I drop four drops of stock solution from a pipette, in to 1 ltr of developer (Pyrocat A solution). I took Ians advice to test first, by adding the solution to a litre of water in a glass container, and giving it a shake to see if it foamed up, but it was quite o.k. It did the job.

I hope this helps

Stoo

 

[Rick A]

Edwal LFN wetting agent claims to be able to be added to any developer to reduce air bell formation on film. I have tried it and it works, but then I presoak anyway, and that works as well.

 

[Athiril]

I don't have access to it here, but I do have wetting agent. The other option is to used de-ionised water through out, but that's to expensive for the quantities I use and 2 drops wetting agent works perfectly.

Commercial developers use a chelating agent (Sodium Hexametaphosphate, EDTA or similar) or a long chain wetting agent that doesn't foam, sometimes both. All companies did a lot of research into this area in the 1930's particularly Agfa. (Some wetting agents also have useful anti-oxidant properties).

Ian

Well out here we got plenty of sun... you seem to as well? Might I suggest a small solar still?

 

[Ian Grant]

When we move and I have space for a darkroom I'll use a de-ioniser, and have room for my raw chemicals etc At the moment all my processing gear & chemistry has to fit in a very small space in the bathroom

I print when back in the UK.

Ian

 

[hacked - sepiareverb]

Thanks Ian, and to all here as well. I may try some LFN with the next order, as my End Run is almost gone.

 

[pgomena]

I've recently added a little Photo-Flo to part A of divided Pyrocat HD to eliminate uneven development. It has had no negative effect on the process and works like a charm. I'm using maybe 1ml in a liter of solution that is used to develop a dozen rolls of film.

Peter Gomena

 

[hacked - sepiareverb]

More good news.