Adding more water to TF4

[Doug Webb]

I am using Photographer's Forumlary TF4 for paper and film with success. There are times when I am developing just a few sheets of film or just a few sheets of paper and there is no reason to be concerned about exhausting the fixer. I would like to save a little money at those times and add more water rather than mixing at the recommended 1:3 ratio. I have used other fixers at 1:7 but they were a different formula. Has anyone added more water with success? If so, what ratio of water to TF4 are you using for film and for paper? Did you use the increased water dilution for fiber and RC? And, what times have you found necessary for the dilution you used?

 

[reellis67]

I mix my TF-4 in 1 liter quantities 1:4 and typicaly keep them for 3 months (or more) before they become exhausted. It sounds like you are using it and then dumping it, which is not necessary - you can get a lot more usage out of this fixer be reusing it. I save the old bottles and use them to store the mixed fixer in, but you can get brown bottles for a few dollars from most photography vendors.

- Randy

 

[Gerald Koch]

I would not make the solution more dilute as silver complex removal from FB papers may be compromised.

There is a lot of mystique surrounding alkaline fixers. You really do not need an alkaline fixer, a neutral one will work as well and has far less smell. That would be a better way of saving money. Just mix your own from Ryuji's formula.

 

[Ryuji]

To add to Jerry's post, the pH of Silvergrain Clearfix is 7.8 and it is strongly buffered there, so that it keeps just right pH (slightly alkaline--almost neutral) over the useful life of the fixing bath, even if you use acid stop. I did it without using borates (abundantly used in TF-4) which is toxic to some plants. I've also tested the fixing speed and washing efficiency of Clearfix with various films and papers, from vintage AGFA stock to Forte to modern Ilford paper, and it's an overall improvement compared to other neutral/alkaline fixers on market (including my own published formula). In the detailed instruction of Clearfix, you'll see that the fixer can be further diluted to 1+7 for some applications, but with increased fixing and washing times. This is very typical of diluted fixer. I generally recommend to use stronger fixer and reuse it until exhaustion for best overall performance. This also minimizes the chemical waste. Since keeping property of Clearfix is excellent, I always reuse fixer until it gets exhausted.

For very cost sensitive people, my published fixer formula is also recommended. The pH of that fixer is about 7.0, and it's not buffered. If you already have the ingredients, it may be significantly cheaper than buying Clearfix, a sad fact of anything that's made by industrial plants for the market of this size.

 

[dancqu]

Has anyone added more water with success?
If so, what ratio of water to TF4 are you
using for film and for paper?

Fixer will work well much diluted. I find 20ml of A. Thio.
concentrate + 480ml of water, 1:24, will fix any 120 roll
of film. TF-4 and other rapid concentrates run close to
the same strength. Test though. Allow 8 to 10 minutes.
Once used it's down the drain. Fresh fix for the next.

I use minimal solution volumes when processing prints.
With pre-wetting 250ml does nicely. My usage has been
10ml A. Thio. concentrate in that 250ml solution volume
when doing 8 x 10s; 1:24.

Another approach; use sodium thiosulfate with
added sodium sulfite. You'll have an odorless, fresh,
mildly alkaline fix each time you process and in any
amount you may predict needed. Both the S. Thio.
and the S. sulfite while dry keep very well. Dan

 

[Ryuji]

Dan has been persistent in advocating dilute fix but I strongly discourage this practice for anything that's important, or if you care about environment via minimizing chemical waste.

While Dan's method uses 6x more dilute solution, the processing capacity is much smaller than 1/6 of the nominal capacity of 1+3 or 1+4 solution.

Also, such a dilute fix runs a risk of not completely fixing the material even though it may clear the film. There are several identified intermediate products of fixing reaction that are difficult to remove without sufficiently strong fixer solution. For this reason, ISO standard, for example, specify the strength of fixer as well as the dissolved silver concentration for archival standard. 1:24 dilution clearly fails to meet the ISO requirement.

I've posted a lengthy description of why you should always use strong fix solution and reuse until exhaustion not long ago. It's also described on my website.

 

[MattKing]

Dilute fix used "one shot?

I have a similar question to the OP, but the practical background is slightly different.

I am forced by circumstances to develop my prints in tubes, on a roller transport.

I most frequently print on 8x10 RC paper, and use Cibachrome (as they then were) tubes. That means using only about 40ml of fixer.

I just use the fixer one shot, and discard after each print is processed. It is quite awkward to try and collect the fixer as it drains from the tubes.

I also only use a single "bath".

Although I'll never object to saving money, I am more concerned with the waste and environmental issues.

If I could dilute the fixer, I would. If I could dilute the fixer, and switch to a two "bath" process, I would.

By the way, I use Kodak Rapid Fix (without hardener). If my local sources offered neutral fix in a liquid format I'd be happy to consider switching.

Thanks in advance for your perspective, and any suggestions.

Matt

 

[dancqu]

...prints in tubes, on a roller transport. ...8x10 RC paper,
...That means using only about 40ml of fixer.
I just use the fixer one shot,... single "bath".
...concerned with the waste and environmental issues.
If I could dilute the fixer, I would. If I could dilute the fixer,
and switch to a two "bath" process, I would. Matt

Another special situation as was addressed by me in
an earlier post. Is 40ml the maximum capacity of the
tube doing 8x10s? If so, for starters I suggested 6ml
of concentrate in that 40ml of solution for 3min. End
to end agitate if possible. Do those tubes seal well?

Wash and dry then use the ST-1 sulfur for residual
silver test. Settle for no stain. You wish to two-bath
RC? For archival purposes? The very high dilutions I
use guarantee archival results with one "bath" Dan

 

[Ryuji]

Matt, with the tube and material you use, is it possible to distribute 40ml over 80 square inch surface evenly and fast enough?

Since you are using RC, I suggest to use 1+7 dilution for 2-3 minutes and try to collect the used fixer. With the carryover stop/rinse, the solution may be diluted further when you collect, but you should be able to get close to 40ml back (assuming no dead space in the tube). Reusing the chemical to its capacity is the best way to minimize chemical waste, and chemical disposal cost.

Ryuji