Acetone developer

[mrred]

I have tried the following acetone developer and I really like what I can do with it.

Water....................965.5 ml
Acetone...................34.5 ml
Sodium sulfite...........2.24gm
Metol......................1.5 gm

This is the same one as Paul Bishop was supposed to have used.

My problem is it doesn't last long and my drum only uses 175 ml at a time. It also uses small enough amounts of Sodium Sulphite and Metol that making smaller amounts will lead to inconsistencies. My solution is to split the ingredients into concentrated solutions.

My question is: If I make a concentrated Sodium Sulphite / Metol mixture, how concentrated can I make it? I know that the sodium is also used to preserve Metol in developers like D23. Are there bad things that would happen if I increased the amount to help it last longer in this concentration?

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I have a vague recollection that Merg Ross also uses an acetone formula. I'm not sure if he's around on APUG at the moment, but he posts on the Large Format Forum at lfphoto.info with some regularity.

 

[Rudeofus]

You can make it at least as concentrated as D-23 (100 g/l Sulfite, 7.5 g/l Metol). I'm not sure whether you can go much higher with Metol, the Altman/Henn paper doesn't seem to go higher, and Kodak's D-82 developer uses Methanol to keep its 14 g/l Metol in solution.

Given that your recipe needs only slightly more Sulfite than Metol, I'd suggest the following procedure:

1. Take some amount of water, add a pinch of Sulfite.
2. Dissolve as much Metol as you can, if you end up with some residue, add more water to get it into solution.
3. Then add as much Sulfite as needed to get the correct ratio

 

[mrred]

I guess it's time for some saturation tests.

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[Rudeofus]

I guess it's time for some saturation tests.

When you do these, watch out for the acidity of Metol, which may cause the Sulfite to release Sulfur Dioxide. The Sulfite to Metol ratio you need is very different from that of normal developers.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The developer is intended to be mixed just before use. Bishop discuss its use in his web article.

 

[mrred]

Yes, I read that one. He was the one that made me try it. But he was a large format man, and I lerk in medium/small formats with rotary drums that only sip developer. Splitting it up into easier to measure forms makes much more sense.

He did say it doesn't last long, but no reference to how much. I left a sample (30-40 ml) out in an open beaker, and it blackened a strip of film in just under a minute after 0,24hrs and 7days of being made. This doesn't indicate the quality but it does show it may work for at least a week.

The first batch I made was only 500ml. It was the largest glass graduated cylinder I had. I got three developing batches run, just enough to hone in on a good dev time. I would like to aim to be able to consistently make this stuff in smaller volumes without introducing measurement errors.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The acetone reacts with the sodium sulfite to form an addition product in the same way that formaldehyde does in high contrast lithograph developers. In doing so it releases hydroxyl ions which raise the pH and act as the accelerator for the developer. Bishop used spoon measure for the two solids in the formula. He also recommended using the best purity of acetone.

BTW, the @#$%&* editor won't let me edit my previous post but thinks I am creating a new one.

 

[mrred]

Gerry, even unedited, your words are gold....

I tried going back to my bookmark a while ago, and I believe they took the interview down. I believe there were issues with whom owned what. I never had the good sense to get the "spoon sizes" written down. Would you have them?

I have been doing my tests with "garbage (paint remover) grade" acetone because I have some. I was not expecting anything near as good as I had gotten. I will look for the better stuff, now that I know it's worthwhile.

 

[mrred]

FYI I found the interview on the wayback machine.....

https://web.archive.org/web/2008112...shop.com/GPB History/Articles/article_-_2.htm

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The developer is not a fine grain one and is intended for MF and LF film. Here is Bishop's formula from the site. it was given in English measure. His prints were really spectacular.

Water 28 fl oz
Acetone 1 fl oz
Sodium sulfite 30 grains
Metol 20 grains

As I said I think I read that he used spoon measure which might have been a mix of desert spoon, teaspoon or tablespoon. Its been a long time and my memory is a bit hazy beyond what is in my notebook. Based on the conversion from English to metric I get different values for everything.

 

[mrred]

Thanks. I am making a new 1 ltr batch tonight. My aim is to see how long this stuff will last. If I can get 1-2 weeks out of a batch, I don't have a problem making a litre at a time.

 

[Trask]

I used Bishop's developer for some time several years ago. I experimented with Bishop "straight", Bishop with a Bath B (as if a divided developer), and Bishop at double concentration with addition of Potassium Bromide -- this last was the best, according to my notes. My "doubled" formula was:

Water 400 ml at 68F
Acetone 15ml (addition of which raised the water temperature a few degrees)
Sodium Sulfite 2 grams
Metol 1.6 grams
KBr 0.8 grams

As an example, I'd develop Fomapan 100 in this developer for 17 minutes with small agitation each minute.

I'm attaching two negative scans as examples, both 35mm -- I certainly had no qualms using Bishop for 35mm, and in fact found it gave very fine grain -- it's easy to read the lettering on those John Galliano outfits, and that's shooting through a glass shop window. Note that the church photo was developed in the formula given above, but the Galliano outfit photo was developed in Bishop without KBR, I believe.

Certain other characteristics was that it seemed to give a very long tonal scale, but not a contrasty negative, and sometimes base fog (hence the KBr).

As noted, don't try to measure acetone with a plastic graduate!

 

[mrred]

As an update, I developed film on days 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 14. All were fine except 14, which didn't even bring a 35mm leader to black.

My original concern to split it up into a/b parts is pretty much dead. I think a week shelf life is ok by me. I have a 5 lb jug of Metol and tons of sodium sulfite, and the acetone I got from the hardware store does work fine.

I might try an equal amount of Glycin and Metol in the next batch.

 

[Trask]

I once tried adding some other developer to the mix -- a few drops of Rodinal? -- and the results were not nice. I, for one, would be interested in hearing your experience adding glycin, as I like what I get with glycin developers.

 

[mrred]

Rodinal is a pre-made developer and I would expect that. Glycin combined with Metol tends to make the Metol last longer, which is what I figure failed after the first week.

My great plans failed: My freezer needs to be de-iced. My bottle of Glycin is stuck in a fairly large chunk of ice. No idea how long to defrost.... Maybe next batch.....

 

[mrred]

I'm having a hard time believing acetone has any place in film development.

I guess it's a good thing it's not for you to decide....

 

[mrred]

APugUser19, aside from reversal processing, it has produced the best quality negs I have ever developed. If it takes a bit of acetone to do it, I'm there.

What would your problem be with acetone?

 

[mrred]

Informative.

 

[paul_c5x4]

I'm having a hard time believing acetone has any place in film development.

I had seen numerous suggestions that (para)formaldehyde could be replaced with acetone in several lith developer formulas, D85 being oft quoted. Decided to do a little bit of testing to see if acetone could be used as a replacement. In short, yes, acetone does react* with sodium sulphite and increases the pH of the solution. The downside (for lith developers) is the increase in pH is insufficient for infectious development.



*) For the technical explanation, see post #9 from Gerald C Koch

 

[pentaxuser]

no comment

Is the above response specifically aimed at the poster who asked what your problem was with acetone? If so I am sorry that it lead to that response as may he be but if you have reasons why acetone should not be without connected to developing then please let the rest of us know.

We can then make up our own minds without it leading to a fight. Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[mrred]

Well, I wasn't fighting. Just a little sarcastic statement. Sorry, it's the Scotts blood.

Although there are lots of reasons not to use the stuff, if inaproperate handling is a must?????? I treat everything I use with respect.

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[Rudeofus]

Once I tried to remove the dyes of an E6 test clips with Acetone - the dyes were gone. but so was the emulsion. This was with pure Acetone, though. Has anyone seen similar issues with this Bishop's developer or similar formulas?

 

[mrred]

No, but this stuff is not the same. It's only 30ml / l and it has gone through a reaction with the sodium sulphite to create a lye like base. The ph of acetone is actually 7, but is highly reactive to many things. I suspect it just dissolved the gelatin.

 

[nworth]

Any excess acetone will attack acetate film base. I don't know about polyester film bases, but I would expect the effect to be less or none. Paper and polyethylene (prints) should be fine.