Acetate vs Polyester base

[ericdan]

Just shot a roll of Rollei 80s and was pleasantly surprised by the very clear polyester base.
I believe Adox has a few films on polyester as well. Polyester seems to have more benefits than downsides, why aren't more films on polyester?

• Longer lasting, no vinegar syndrome
• thinner
• clear base for scanning or reversal processing
• stronger against tearing

 

[John Wiegerink]

Just shot a roll of Rollei 80s and was pleasantly surprised by the very clear polyester base.
I believe Adox has a few films on polyester as well. Polyester seems to have more benefits than downsides, why aren't more films on polyester?

• Longer lasting, no vinegar syndrome
• thinner
• clear base for scanning or reversal processing
• stronger against tearing

I've wondered the same thing as I like it also. Only thing I can think of for the film manufacture for not using it would be cost or compatibility?

 

[miha]

To my understanding polyester is cheaper with more downsides when used in roll films.

 

[ericdan]

What downsides does it have other than light piping?

 

[miha]

Potential damage to the transport mechanism, especially with a h/s motor-drive. Or damage to the roller C41 machine. All due to the fact that PET won't tear when jammed.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The clarity of the film base has nothing to do with whether it is polyester or acetate. Some films use a antihalation\antipipng dye present in the base. Since the dye is incorporated in the film base it will not wash out.

 

[AgX]

The Polyester based films we typically get to use are from aerial films where dyeing of the base is of lesser need if at all.

Decades ago, price indeed was a factor. Today we get beverages in single-use polyester bottles...

 

[BAC1967]

In cine film polyester can damage the claw in both the projector and camera.

 

[AgX]

Nevertheless all cine print film has got polyester base.

 

[ericdan]

Potential damage to the transport mechanism, especially with a h/s motor-drive. Or damage to the roller C41 machine. All due to the fact that PET won't tear when jammed.

That sounds like a problem for video cameras not still pictures. If it jams I just don't force advance it.

 

[ericdan]

Nevertheless all cine print film has got polyester base.

And probably for a good reason. I assume video cameras are more expensive than projectors. Also it would make sense for the print film to be archival not so much the original medium.
I guess for still photographers that means we have to print on fiber paper if we want it to be archival. Our acetate negs will be vinegar within decades.

 

[AgX]

Cine print films are not made with longevity in mind. They rather are seen as consumables.

 

[ericdan]

Cine print films are not made with longevity in mind. They rather are seen as consumables.

the negative you shoot on is not. I agree.
The polyester base the negative is printed on is intended to last.
kodak estar base is made out of polyester.

 

[Gibran]

Curling/ film flatness (along with the previously mentioned light piping) are the major issue with 120 roll film and the use of polyester. The curl seems to have a memory and is nowhere near as flat as most films that use an acetate base.

 

[MattKing]

A lot of film manufacturing decisions are made with consideration of many factors, including some that might not occur automatically to those of us who have our choice of several high quality cameras, and either home development or pro lab development.

Polyester base is unforgiving. If you run it through a cheap camera or a worn mini lab, if something is out of alignment, the camera or the mini lab are more likely to be damaged then the film.

If volumes were as high as they once were, there might be an argument for redesigning a bunch of films so as to use polyester, but in the current market?

 

[ericdan]

Curling/ film flatness (along with the previously mentioned light piping) are the major issue with 120 roll film and the use of polyester. The curl seems to have a memory and is nowhere near as flat as most films that use an acetate base.

I have shot:

• Rollei Superpan 200
• Fomapan 100
• Rollei 80s

all in 120 format, in which they are coated on polyester.
The light piping might be a real issue, but these films were the flattest and clearest films I've ever seen.
120 also doesn't have sprocket holes. Other than for 35mm color negative film I don't buy the "it can damage machinery" argument.
Slide film is usually processed in dip and dunk machines and so is B&W unless you do it at home.

As for cameras, I think you just don't force wind and you're fine.
The camera will also break if you forcefully smash it on the floor

 

[JPD]

Adox CHS 100 II is also coated on polyester and it doesn't curl. Top notch film!

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The Eastman B&W cine films were coated on acetate stock. Even with its acetate base Eastman 5222 exhibits absolutely no curl. Curling seems to be a function of base thickness rather than composition.

http://motion.kodak.com/KodakGCG/up...s/Camera_Films/5222/Resources/5222_ti0299.pdf

The following cross reference between films and their bases may be helpful. Films with Eastman numbers 52XX or 72XX like 5222 are on acetate stock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motion_picture_film_stocks

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Light piping is not a problem with 120 films since the film edge is never exposed to tight as with 36mm cassettes.

 

[Arctic amateur]

Curling/ film flatness (along with the previously mentioned light piping) are the major issue with 120 roll film and the use of polyester. The curl seems to have a memory and is nowhere near as flat as most films that use an acetate base.

I've had much more curl/cupping problems with acetate films than with polyester films.

Polyester films are a bit harder to cut properly, since the film base is tougher.

 

[Ashfaque]

The polyester based films I've used so far are Retro 80s, and possibly RPX 25. I haven't used my CMS 20 II yet.

They are quite tough to tear even with your teeth. Retro 80s' anti-halation colour thingy tastes quite yucky!

Regarding thinness:
Problem - I once put more than 40+ exp. in a 35mm cassette quite easily without realising that I'll struggle to put them in a (Jobo 1500) single reel.
Benefit - They are really easy to feed into Jobo reels.

Another benefit: Once dried, I noticed that they're quite scratch- and fingerprint resistant even when you touch the film. Probably has some kind of anti-static property too as a simple air blow removes the dust.

Bests,
Ashfaque

 

[ericdan]

80s and 400s are nice but quite high in contrast. I assume realistically they are more like 50 and 200 iso respectively.

 

[Ashfaque]

Eric: Beutler + Retro 80S combos I've seen so far are quite good. You'll find a few under my flickr favourites.

 

[Gibran]

I have shot:

• Rollei Superpan 200
• Fomapan 100
• Rollei 80s

all in 120 format, in which they are coated on polyester.
The light piping might be a real issue, but these films were the flattest and clearest films I've ever seen.
120 also doesn't have sprocket holes. Other than for 35mm color negative film I don't buy the "it can damage machinery" argument.
Slide film is usually processed in dip and dunk machines and so is B&W unless you do it at home.

As for cameras, I think you just don't force wind and you're fine.
The camera will also break if you forcefully smash it on the floor

Interesting as my experience with processing quite a bit of 80S and Superpan 200 is the opposite. I see a lot of curl lengthwise with 120, so much so that the film can still be stood on it's edge after storage under weight. Even the entire negative sleeve can be stood on it's edge. By contrast, TMY2 120 for instance dries amazingly flat. This is with a final rinse in Photo Flo. I would be curious if you are using a different wetting agent that might be giving flatter drying. Developer is either HC-110 or Rodinal. Adox CHS 100 II also curls a bit but not as severe as 80S and Superpan 200 in my experience.

80S is a film I have shot a lot of lately, purchased from both B&H and Argentix. Two different batches (one older and one newer with the different backing paper). Same experience with both. Beautiful film imo but the curl and, to a greater extent, the dirty film/ emulsion issues and or quality control (seen when scanned at hi res) are deal breakers for me.

 

[Besk]

The archival properties of polyester film are paramount to me. For that reason I only use polyester films - there are many in sheet film but not so with the roll films. If only Kodak made T-max 400 roll film with the polyester base!