Accurate Multi-Point Autofocus Medium Format

DH_Studio · Feb 13, 2021

Hi all,

There was a thread about this on here years ago, but it sprawled into loupe, custom viewfinder, contact lens and eye surgery suggestions and got way off topic, so wanted to ask a very specific question:

Does anyone have firsthand experience with medium format systems with autofocus beyond one single broad AF "circle?" For example, the Mamiya 645AFDii has one large central AF point that renders it pretty useless for shooting wide scenes with any real depth, because it averages the focus for everything within the circle rather than use a precise "point" like a modern DSLR (or even the 35mm Canon EOS3).

I've been Googling systems, scouring manuals to try to find which medium format systems or cameras have the most accurate "point" style AF and keep coming up empty. Some of those were mentioned on the last post on this subject from 2016 but without any mention (mostly) of personal experience using them. Asking if anyone has used a system successfully and can recommend and speak a little about their experience?

Thank you!

Frank53 · Feb 13, 2021

I’ve been using the Mamiya 645 afdii and the Fujica 645zi for quite some time. I was happy with the autofocus and was never disappointed.
Regards,
Frank

MattKing · Feb 13, 2021

One thing that may help you avoid confusion:
Many people use "MF" to refer to Manual Focus, rather than Medium Format. At first I couldn't make sense of what you are asking!

DH_Studio · Feb 13, 2021

Frank53 said:
I’ve been using the Mamiya 645 afdii and the Fujica 645zi for quite some time. I was happy with the autofocus and was never disappointed.
Regards,
Frank

Thanks, Frank. I read that the AF was upgraded on the AFD3, is it multiple points or just one? Same question with the 645zi. I hadn't heard of that one, I read that it's kind of a medium format point-and-shoot but very easy to work with with very sharp AF. Appreciate the response!

DH_Studio · Feb 13, 2021

MattKing said:
One thing that may help you avoid confusion:
Many people use "MF" to refer to Manual Focus, rather than Medium Format. At first I couldn't make sense of what you are asking!

Thanks, I just edited that to make it crystal clear. I assumed that since I said specifically "medium format autofocus" repeatedly before abbreviating it people would be able to follow along but probably always a good idea to spell things out so that it is impossible to get confused by when posting on web forums!

Now that we got that out of the way, I know you post a lot on the forum and have a lot of experience - do you have any recommendations related to the question?

xya · Feb 13, 2021

I have used (and still use) the different fuji GA models. the focussing point is pretty small and it nearly never fails. a second shot in case of doubt might help, but it's pretty reliable. even more reliable than my "modern" DSLR or my mirror-less A7.

Frank53 · Feb 13, 2021

DH_Studio said:
Thanks, Frank. I read that the AF was upgraded on the AFD3, is it multiple points or just one? Same question with the 645zi. I hadn't heard of that one, I read that it's kind of a medium format point-and-shoot but very easy to work with with very sharp AF. Appreciate the response!

Both camera’s I used had just one focussing point. Don’t know about the afdiii.
Regards,
Frank

DH_Studio · Feb 13, 2021

Frank53 said:
Both camera’s I used had just one focussing point. Don’t know about the afdiii.
Regards,
Frank

Oh sorry, just reread your original reply, I misread - thought you had the 645AFDiii.

I have and love everything else about the AFDii but the huge AF point. I was shooting a full body environmental portrait recently and the AF point was so large it couldn't pick out the subject's face and ended up averaging it with the other things in the scene so that everything was "okay" and nothing was tack sharp. I have eyesight problems (which I didn't get into in the original post because I was trying to keep this thread about equipment specifically rather than a lot of armchair optometry) and can't rely on manual focus anymore, so I'm trying to find super sharp and accurate medium format systems with smaller AF points. I also shoot a Canon EOS3 which has multiple AF points and is very accurate but the tradeoff is the smaller neg, which I don't love. Hoping to find the best of both worlds.

MattKing · Feb 13, 2021

DH_Studio said:
Now that we got that out of the way, I know you post a lot on the forum and have a lot of experience - do you have any recommendations related to the question?

No - but that is because of a preference for manual focus.
For that reason my experience with auto-focus is limited to a dalliance with Canon EF in 35mm film, a couple of point and shoot 35mm cameras, and M4/3 in digital.
To give you flexibility, you might want to add good usability in manual focus mode to your criteria.

DH_Studio · Feb 13, 2021

MattKing said:
No - but that is because of a preference for manual focus.
For that reason my experience with auto-focus is limited to a dalliance with Canon EF in 35mm film, a couple of point and shoot 35mm cameras, and M4/3 in digital.
To give you flexibility, you might want to add good usability in manual focus mode to your criteria.

Vision problems - can't use manual focus, even with a diopter (or even a loupe on ground glass). Didn't get into that because it invites deviation and threads end up in the weeds, thousands of miles off-topic.

Huss · Feb 14, 2021

DH_Studio said:
Does anyone have firsthand experience with medium format systems with autofocus beyond one single broad AF "circle?"

I use a Hasselblad H1. It has a small single point circle for AF. It actually is kinda hard to see the circle in some conditions because it is not that well defined in the VF!
But AF works ok, it's not fast, most of the time it hits focus, a few times I have to fine tune the focus point manually to get it right there.
To do that I have the camera set up for manual focus, with a custom button set for AF. Otherwise if you focus manually, then squeeze the shutter button, it will over-ride your manual focus setting.

It is a nice camera and I do recommend it, but the AF is definitely nothing like more modern cameras. Hasselblad still services it which is a bonus.
The H2 is the H1 with a firmware update. Hasselblad can update the H1 to the H2 specs. I think it allows the use of a different battery grip and has a few new menu options.

mshchem · Feb 14, 2021

Single point works well with 35mm and d**tal cameras where you can select different sensors throughout the frame. Be careful what you wish for, the latest computer controlled focusing systems can have a mind of it's own.

ic-racer · Feb 14, 2021

Outside of the 6x4.5 cameras mentioned are there any AF cameras other than the Rollei 6008AF and the Rollei Hy6? I have both of them and they work fine. I got them because of my eyesight. It also turns out that getting more cameras also gave me a total of 4 different focus screens. So, I have also found that optimizing focus screen and optimizing diopter strength and prism style, also help manual focus. (There is only a small selection of focal lengths in the AF line of lenses.)
For example most types of 'bright' screen I own or have owned are almost impossible to manual focus, so I put those on the AF Rollei cameras.

DH_Studio · Feb 20, 2021

Huss said:
I use a Hasselblad H1. It has a small single point circle for AF. It actually is kinda hard to see the circle in some conditions because it is not that well defined in the VF!
But AF works ok, it's not fast, most of the time it hits focus, a few times I have to fine tune the focus point manually to get it right there.
To do that I have the camera set up for manual focus, with a custom button set for AF. Otherwise if you focus manually, then squeeze the shutter button, it will over-ride your manual focus setting.

It is a nice camera and I do recommend it, but the AF is definitely nothing like more modern cameras. Hasselblad still services it which is a bonus.
The H2 is the H1 with a firmware update. Hasselblad can update the H1 to the H2 specs. I think it allows the use of a different battery grip and has a few new menu options.

Thanks for that detailed response, Huss, I really appreciate it. I wonder if the circle on the H series is like the circle on my Mamiya. I'd ballpark it at about 20-30% of the overall view (through the prism finder). So definitely not effective for focusing on one smaller object in a wide shot with lots of depth. I also have a Canon EOS-3 which has a more primitive version of the very small AF points (tiny rectangles) that most modern DSLRs have, and it's ten times more effective than the AF in my Mamiya, but I like the ability to print larger that comes with shooting 120. The Mamiya AF is slow and loud but that's not so much of an issue for me, it's how wide the focusing circle is. If I'm shooting a full body portrait at f8 with some space above and below the subject it's a crap shoot whether the camera will focus on the subject or the background, and my eyes can't tell the difference, even with a diopter, glasses, contacts - Hell, I can't even focus a 4x5 with a 10x loupe with any accuracy. It's making me crazy.

DH_Studio · Feb 20, 2021

ic-racer said:
Outside of the 6x4.5 cameras mentioned are there any AF cameras other than the Rollei 6008AF and the Rollei Hy6? I have both of them and they work fine. I got them because of my eyesight. It also turns out that getting more cameras also gave me a total of 4 different focus screens. So, I have also found that optimizing focus screen and optimizing diopter strength and prism style, also help manual focus. (There is only a small selection of focal lengths in the AF line of lenses.)
For example most types of 'bright' screen I own or have owned are almost impossible to manual focus, so I put those on the AF Rollei cameras.

Thanks for the reply, could you describe the AF point/points on your Rolleis? Is there just one large center point or circle like my Mamiya?

DH_Studio · Feb 20, 2021

mshchem said:
Single point works well with 35mm and d**tal cameras where you can select different sensors throughout the frame. Be careful what you wish for, the latest computer controlled focusing systems can have a mind of it's own.

Different sensors? I've never heard of a camera with more than one.

What I would prefer is to be able to manually focus, but wishing don't make it so. I would settle for any medium format system with an AF point that isn't a third of the screen. Very bad design, IMO. If you're going to do something, do it right, or not at all. Unless you're shooting on a flat plane the AF has almost no clue what to focus on, which completely defeats the purpose of having AF at all.

mshchem · Feb 20, 2021

DH_Studio said:
Different sensors? I've never heard of a camera with more than one.

What I would prefer is to be able to manually focus, but wishing don't make it so. I would settle for any medium format system with an AF point that isn't a third of the screen. Very bad design, IMO. If you're going to do something, do it right, or not at all. Unless you're shooting on a flat plane the AF has almost no clue what to focus on, which completely defeats the purpose of having AF at all.

D6 has 105 cross type sensors.

Most Medium format auto focus that I know of is Mamiya, Contax, and Hasselblad, all 645. Oh and Fuji made a rangefinder like camera, fixed lens

DH_Studio · Feb 21, 2021

mshchem said:
D6 has 105 cross type sensors.

Most Medium format auto focus that I know of is Mamiya, Contax, and Hasselblad, all 645. Oh and Fuji made a rangefinder like camera, fixed lens

Oh you're saying "sensor" as in "autofocus point." Okay, got it. I was asking for firsthand personal experience and about AF specifics, vs which cameras have AF. I know there are tons but asked for people to share what they use and know specifically.

ic-racer · Feb 21, 2021

DH_Studio said:
Thanks for the reply, could you describe the AF point/points on your Rolleis? Is there just one large center point or circle like my Mamiya?

The focus point on the Hy6 is a variable spot in the center of the field. It has 3 sizes. The 6008AF is similar with a choice of two sizes.

AF with a waist-level finder is really nice. It eliminates having to flip up the focus lens, focus, and go back to waist-level for the exposure.

choiliefan · Feb 21, 2021

I'm probably missing something obvious here but I had a Pentax 645NII which nailed the exact focus point I desired in AF unfailingly.
Only thing variable about the viewfinder was the metering area iirc.

pentaxuser · Feb 21, 2021

DH_Studio said:
Vision problems - can't use manual focus, even with a diopter (or even a loupe on ground glass). Didn't get into that because it invites deviation and threads end up in the weeds, thousands of miles off-topic.

I use a P645N with the 75mm AF lens and it seems to always achieve focus but I cannot say if it is multi-point focus or not. However based on your problem what I can say is that with PK- A lenses which are manual it does have both a sound(beep noise) and vision signal (green hexagonal light up in the viewfinder to indicate that what you are pointing at is in focus. From my experience all the object has to be is in the middle of the matte viewfinder screen which has a kind of broken rectangle in the centre

If you think this might be of help then it might be worth asking the specific question on the Pentaxforums website where there are probably people with enough knowledge to answer your question

Best of luck

pentaxuser

CJG · Feb 21, 2021

Here's what my Rollei 6008af manual says.

I focus manually so no first hand experience:
The AF module of the camera detects autofocus with three operate sensors, the central on responding above all top vertical patterns, the two lateral ones to horizontal patterns. For spot autofocus the two lateral sensors can be disabled using the menu mode.

mshchem · Feb 21, 2021

Rollei made some seriously sexy stuff. I have a brochure, I'm thinking it's from 97, 98. Illustrates the 6008, 6003, lenses and all the accessories. Really pretty cameras and lenses. It's ancient history now.

Pieter12 · Feb 21, 2021

mshchem said:
Rollei made some seriously sexy stuff. I have a brochure, I'm thinking it's from 97, 98. Illustrates the 6008, 6003, lenses and all the accessories. Really pretty cameras and lenses. It's ancient history now.

Ancient history because they are no longer made? Because the company has changed hands a few times? They are very well-made cameras, very sophisticated and possibly still state-of-the-art for a 6x6 medium format film camera. I use the Rollei 6008i and Hy6 (still in production) as my main medium format cameras. The lenses are superb. The bigger issue is service and parts. As far as I know there are only three places to get them repaired, one in the U.S. and the others in Germany.

cramej · Feb 22, 2021

The 645AFD is more of a focus and recompose type camera. When I remembered that, it was very accurate and spot on.

Accurate Multi-Point Autofocus Medium Format

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