Absolute darkroom beginner

Black Dog · Nov 14, 2013

ISTR the Kodak ones were especially hard to open-do Kodak think all photographers are more ripped than Arnie?....

nocturnal · Nov 20, 2013

At last I developed my first film.

I had to practice over and over again with loading the film inside the bag. Then as I was doing it one of the elastic arm bands bust and I forgot sissors. So I had to retreat an arm making sure there was no direct light path.

I had a water bath with the chemicals ready. The opened fixer someone gave me turned out to have floaters in it so I had to turn to my original query of using Barclay fixer (expired 1996!!!). It was never opened and looked clear so I chanced it. It said 20-40 seconds for any B&W film so I gave it about 40, then rinsed the film inside the canister under the tap for 10 minutes and finalised with a few drops of wetting agent for 2 minutes.

Now up in the bathroom drying and the film clips I got are a great job, they pearce and lock through the film and one of them is weighted.

Even with my amateur eye the negatives look healthy enough. I was using a modern flash on a Pentax ME Super and I just estimated exposure.

I would love to see these. My proposed darkroom is perhaps too tiny (according to Ansel Adams LOL). Is there a way to see the prints without enlarging them? I'm not sure when or if I can get a darkroom running. I'm tempted to get a good scanner (APUG strike me down!) and this would only be to view them, send them around AND show my work here!

I'm really surprised it worked at all given that the fixer was ancient! Very satisfied with my first attempt and I bought Kenco acetate negative storage files for my work. Is it true that you can make a contact print straight through them? These were twice the price of glassine ones.

polyglot · Nov 20, 2013

40s is not nearly enough time in fixer. The usual would be 3 to 5 minutes in rapid fixer, probably 10 minutes in non-rapid fixer. If there is the slightest bit of milkiness or brown staining, fix the film again for longer.

In terms of seeing the photos, you can scan it (questions about that are banned on APUG) or you can contact-print it (do some googling), which gives you prints the same size ad the negative so a whole roll will fit on a single 8x10 page.

Nige · Nov 21, 2013

nocturnal said:
I'm really surprised it worked at all given that the fixer was ancient!

You might not see the effects of under fixing for years... as recommended above, wack it back in for a few minutes.

nocturnal · Nov 21, 2013

Yes I too thought it should have been around 3 minutes although the instructions specifically stated 20-40 seconds so I went for 40.

It was quite a concentrated mix 1:3 so I used 100ml straight from the bottle (if this makes any difference to the logic).

I will try a contact print soon, I have paper developer expiry 1996 but I'll go for new stuff!

Put it back in again?

Terry Christian · Nov 21, 2013

I always fix for at least five minutes, and up to about seven if I've reused my fixer a few times.

A quick and dirty way to preview your images is to shoot them against a bright white background with a digital camera or smartphone, and invert with Photoshop or similar app.

mr rusty · Nov 21, 2013

A little tip for fixer. When you snip the end off your 35mm film to load it onto the reel, keep the clipped end. Mix up some new fixer according to the strength you intend to use. (1:4 for ilford). Put one spot of fixer on the clip and it will make a clear spot. Now dip the whole clip in the fixer and time it to see how long it takes to clear completely so you can no longer see the initial spot. probably be somewhere around a minute. This means that with brand new fixer 2 minutes is ample clearing time. However as the fixer ages, clearing time gets longer. Use your film clips to keep track of your fixer and when the initial time to clear hits double the original fresh fixer time, junk it and start again. Aged fixer time to clear can be 2 minutes, so appropriate time in fixer is 4-5 minutes to be safe at normal temperatures.

My proposed darkroom is perhaps too tiny

How big? I work very comfortably in a space 1.3m x 2m.

A quick and dirty way to preview your images is to shoot them against a bright white background with a digital camera or smartphone

An even quicker and dirtier way is to use the "positron" ap for iphone which inverts what the camera sees.

nocturnal · Nov 21, 2013

Well that's a roll of film wasted then! Why would the manufacturer state 20-40 seconds is beyond me. I wanted to stick to the recommended time as I read too much fixing ruins a film in several ways.

I do have an all in one flat-bed-scanner, a recent one, it can't scan film but surely I could scan it and invert it with software.

Update: I tried it with a colour negative there and it has a very blue hue.

Mr. Rusty, I measured my proposed space there, 1.6m x 0.76m with a sloping roof for the stairs (this is no good)

MattKing · Nov 21, 2013

Just re-fix the film properly in regular fixer as soon as you are able. Then re-wash it. It will be fine.

I bet your fixer is designed for dental X-ray film, and therefore is very concentrated. The machines in dentist's offices were designed to develop X-ray film very quickly.

It may still be functional for regular film, but I wouldn't chance it.

pentaxuser · Nov 21, 2013

The OP is not the first beginner to mention that the instructions said 20-40 secs so such instructions do exist although I cannot remember whose instructions. The reason might be as Matt has conjectured

I have never seen such instructions with Ilford, Nova or Tetenal fixers.

OP do the instructions mention X-Ray film or otherwise suggest that this time isn't for normal film?

pentaxuser

Xmas · Nov 21, 2013

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/aboutus/page.asp?n=31

mr rusty · Nov 21, 2013

it can't scan film but surely I could scan it

Doesn't work unless scanner is designed for negs. (runs away quickly before mods catch me talking about scanning)

nocturnal · Nov 21, 2013

FAO pentaxuser

Hello 'fellow' pentaxuser,

The instructions mention nothing of X-Ray.

The fellow who sold me this 'kit' bought it from a shop basically as a beginner's kit:

The fixer is and I quote verbatim:

1 Litre dilution 1 + 3 makes 4 litres

Barclay Black and White Universal Fixer 1 Litre

For all Black and White films and papers

Fixes films in 20-40 seconds

Fixes paper in 30 seconds

Treats 80 prints (8 x 10) per litre of working strength solution

Sangers LTD Birmingham U.K

...................................................

I'll not bother fixing it again and I'll put it all down to experience.

Another thing is I am so allergic to this stuff. I just lifted the bottle and my skin is itching all over as I was last night!!!!!!

Thanks for the scanner info and I'll not waste any more time!

pentaxuser · Nov 21, 2013

Thanks for the answers. I did know that Barclay produced paper and now it seems fixer as well. However it never was a paper producer so someone else made its paper and so it seems to be true of its chemicals as well, namely Sangers of Birmingham.

So to those of you with long experience of darkroom work, anyone else used Barclay's fixer( probably U.K. and rest of Europe rather than the U.S.) who can help?

OP, unless the negs are suitable only for the bin I would re-fix as others have advised and there might be no problem with Barclay fixer that a longer fixing wouldn't take care of.

As it is Sangers of Birmingham I think we may need the extensive knowledge of a West Midlander called Ian Grant to get to answers as to its origins etc a

OP, the itching might be peculiar to this make of fixer, in which case not a large problem or it might be that you are allergic to the chemicals in fixers in general in which case a much bigger problem. However
if you avoid its contact with your skin which is do-able then you should be OK

pentaxuser

nocturnal · Nov 21, 2013

No, there are many good photos there, I had a good idea when I took them.

A Halloween party with many people there and good comedy times.

Right I'm away to leave this in again for 3 minutes!

If I am even close to it I start itching, even looking at it!

nocturnal · Nov 21, 2013

Reverse!

The film was getting wrecked winding back onto the reel again (wet reels?). More damage getting done so I'm cuting them up and storing them away in darkness.

Next time i'll allow more time although can you not damage the film by over fixing?

pentaxuser · Nov 21, 2013

nocturnal said:
Reverse!

The film was getting wrecked winding back onto the reel again (wet reels?). More damage getting done so I'm cuting them up and storing them away in darkness.QUOTE]

Are you referring to refixing? If so there are two choices. Let the film completely dry and dry the reels as well and then rewind or simply drop the film alone into a bath of fresh fixer for say 2-3 mins and swill the fixer around as you would with wetting agent.

If the film isn't properly fixed then I don't think that storing away in darkness is going to help. Yes you can over fix but it takes a long time to do so or at least much longer than a further 2-3 mins of fresh fixing

pentaxuser

MattKing · Nov 21, 2013

You did dilute the fixer didn't you?

1 part concentrate from the bottle plus 3 parts water?

nocturnal · Nov 21, 2013

I cut the film up and put it in an acetate A4 sheet. I did crease one of the photos trying to get it back on the reel.

Maybe the film is properly fixed? I did follow the instructions on the bottle and went to the max. Why would the manufacturer state otherwise?

It certainly is fixed to a great extent as the film was hanging in the daylight and the images are still there (for now anyway)

Yes 1 to 3 mix Matt

I'm thinking that if I am to enjoy this I am going to need a dedicated area so I'll need a bigger house. Trying to empty the small cupboard, set up the enlarger, calibrate it all, no sink, no electricity then working in super cramped conditions, annoying family, then put all the cupboard contents back in again...

I think I'll buy a scanner for now and do all this when and if it ever becomes possible! I'd love it if I had the space to do so, meanwhile I'll keep on using film, developing and storing away for future enlargement.

Xmas · Nov 22, 2013

Buy a changing bag for film processing.

Enlarging only needs heavy drapes and night outside. You can put exposed paper in double envelop and carry to bathroom. Not many people ever had dedicated darkroom in films day.

If you feel skin irration wear kitchen gloves with chemicals wet or dry, don't use gloves in kitchen afterwards.

Do not process in kitchen, bathrooms only. Read the hazard labels.

Google metol allergy I use phenodine developers instead most Ilford developers are phenodine

nocturnal · Nov 22, 2013

I have a changing bag and it worked well after a lot of practice.

I thought the room had to be 100% light free. I developed in the kitchen, maybe not do this again!

I think I am super allergic to these chemicals. I noticed my mood deteriorating as well when I am around it, maybe this is concidence but I know this is really harmful and hence the reasoning for ventilation. There is no way I want to try developing under the stairs with 3 trays of chemicals!

Well now you have opened my eyes... I'll try and think where I can enlarge (although doesn't it really need to be dust free and free of vibration?)

Well I could enlarge under the stairs and carry the paper up to the bathroom which needs blacked out (What about electricity, how can you see?) Unless I can wire a safelight into the main light.

Thanks

MattKing · Nov 22, 2013

nocturnal said:
I have a changing bag and it worked well after a lot of practice.

I thought the room had to be 100% light free. I developed in the kitchen, maybe not do this again!

I think I am super allergic to these chemicals. I noticed my mood deteriorating as well when I am around it, maybe this is concidence but I know this is really harmful and hence the reasoning for ventilation. There is no way I want to try developing under the stairs with 3 trays of chemicals!

Well now you have opened my eyes... I'll try and think where I can enlarge (although doesn't it really need to be dust free and free of vibration?)

Well I could enlarge under the stairs and carry the paper up to the bathroom which needs blacked out (What about electricity, how can you see?) Unless I can wire a safelight into the main light.

Thanks

Before you come to any conclusions about whether you are allergic to fixer, it might be prudent to try some fixer that is a bit younger than fixer purchased in 1996 .

And ventilation is important - the chemicals used in black and white photography are relatively benign when encountered at working strength, but lack of fresh air is bad for you no matter what you are doing.

For years I worked in a darkroom that was about 4x6 feet, with intruding heating ducts. It can be done.

MattKing · Nov 22, 2013

Out of curiosity, I did some googling around the Barclay's fixer and agree there isn't much info out there.

The language used in the instructions does ring a bell however, in that you can find some of the same wording about the short times on a couple of education supply websites, although those words are applied to other manufacturers' products.

As an example, one educational supply house used that language when describing Fotospeed FX20 fixer.

None of the other retailers for that fixer recommend those times.

So I have a feeling that the instructions you have just reprint an error, that has been repeated elsewhere as well.

polyglot · Nov 22, 2013

Whether 40s or 4 minutes is the right time doesn't matter. You can re-fix the film in an icecream container or something, it doesn't need to be on a reel or in the dark. If it's underfixed then it will degrade in the long term but there will be no damage at all just yet. It's also very difficult to damage film by overfixing, it takes about 10 minutes before any damage is measurable (yet invisible) and something like half an hour before the image quality is visibly reduced.

So there is a good chance you can save your film now by fixing it longer, there is little to no chance of the film being damaged yet by under fixing and there is basically no chance that you will damage it be refixing, just make sure that the corner of one piece of film cannot come into contact with another piece, i.e. do one piece at a time.

polyglot · Nov 22, 2013

The room doesn't need to be dark at all for film developing as long as you use daylight tanks and load them in a dark bag. You only need darkness for printing.

I agree that your intended darkroom sounds very small and would suggest that you use the laundry or bathroom instead. Black window-drapes taped on will block the light well, plus a towel under the door gets it quite dark enough to print, especially at night.

As to sensitization, fixer isn't generally much of an issue and it definitely doesn't cause mood issues. It can smell bad and if there's a rotten egg smell (H2S) due to the fixer being really old then that is a bit toxic but ventilation (or fresher fixer) will deal with that issue.

You can become contact-sensitized to some developers (metol), and especially colour developers. Gloves while printing fixes that problem for B&W, and don't do colour prints in trays.

Absolute darkroom beginner

Black Dog

nocturnal

polyglot

Nige

nocturnal

Terry Christian

mr rusty

nocturnal

MattKing

Moderator

pentaxuser

Xmas

mr rusty

nocturnal

pentaxuser

nocturnal

nocturnal

pentaxuser

MattKing

Moderator

nocturnal

Xmas

nocturnal

MattKing

Moderator

MattKing

Moderator

polyglot

polyglot

Absolute darkroom beginner

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency