ABC Pyro not grainy

[mcfactor]

I just finished my first kit of ABC pyro and I did not find it to be grainy at all. I had read a lot of posts about how it was "not good for enlarging" because of its grain. Im not sure if there was one original source for this idea or if many people had observed it first hand, but i have not found this to be the case at all. I developed efke 25 and fp4 4x5. The grain for both these films is at least as small, if not smaller than rodinal-developed film. I only enlarged it 11x14, which had no apparent grain whatsoever, but I could barely see grain with the grain focuser.

So, I was wondering: how many people actually have found abc pyro to be not fine grained enough to enlarge?

I suspect that many people havent actually tried it, but have only heard it from another person or place. Different people have different standards for grain, but from the way people were describing this developer, I would have thought that grain would be noticeable and it was not at all. I'm sure if I blew the image up to, say, 40x50, it might see some grain, but no more than with any normal, i.e., not fine-grain, developer.

Has anyone had a problem with grain (first hand)?

 

[JBrunner]

I just finished my first kit of ABC pyro and I did not find it to be grainy at all. I had read a lot of posts about how it was "not good for enlarging" because of its grain. Im not sure if there was one original source for this idea or if many people had observed it first hand, but i have not found this to be the case at all. I developed efke 25 and fp4 4x5. The grain for both these films is at least as small, if not smaller than rodinal-developed film. I only enlarged it 11x14, which had no apparent grain whatsoever, but I could barely see grain with the grain focuser.

So, I was wondering: how many people actually have found abc pyro to be not fine grained enough to enlarge?

I suspect that many people havent actually tried it, but have only heard it from another person or place. Different people have different standards for grain, but from the way people were describing this developer, I would have thought that grain would be noticeable and it was not at all. I'm sure if I blew the image up to, say, 40x50, it might see some grain, but no more than with any normal, i.e., not fine-grain, developer.
Has anyone had a problem with grain (first hand)?

Pyro masks grain, that's pretty much a third of the reason to use it. I haven't tried every Pyro developer there is, but IMO ABC probably has the most pronounced grain of all the pyro developers, but at sheet film sizes the stain mitigates this. I wouldn't recommend any pyro developer (thats just me- tastes vary) for 35mm because the grain becomes much more apparent, not just because of the reduced negative, but because the effect of the stain isn't as good with the bigger enlargement needed and larger (relative to the negative) grain size. Also, though I love Rodinal, it's not a developer I would use as a baseline for fine grain. I've never had objectional grain with any large format/developer combo. I've made some astoundingly sharp negatives with Rodinal and 8x10. I can find grain with magnification, but holy crap they are sharp when contact printed. But all that is blather. If you like it, use it.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

I use ABC pyro quite a bit, and compared to PMK, ABC will show a lot of grain.

On the other hand, you've discovered that a slow film with a grainy developer can often produce very nice prints, because you get pretty fine grain and very good acutance. That's the attraction of using Rodinal with a fine grained film like Pan-F, and I think ABC would be a variation on the theme.

There are ways of mitigating the grain for enlargements, like targeting your development time for printing on grade 3 instead of grade 2, which will produce a thinner, more fine grained neg. For contact prints with normal contrast scenes I usually use ABC 1+1+1+7, but for negatives to be enlarged (6x7cm to 4x5"), I usually use 1+1+1+12 and make a thinner neg. For 6x6 and 35mm I use PMK, if I want pyro.

 

[mcfactor]

Yes, Im sure dilution has something to do with it, i used ABC 3:1:1:30 because I found the normal dilution to be too contrasty. Still, there are many people who use rodinal for smaller formats and, I believe, would be perfectly happy (grain-wise) using ABC pyro instead. It seems that there is a stigma (and mystique) surrounding ABC pyro that is not really deserved. It is a high-acutance developer that produces grain no better or no worse that other (rodinal, beutler's) high-acutance developers.

 

[nworth]

I've done a fair amount of experimenting with grain and developers, and I have found that grain is almost entirely determined by the film. Developers can mask or enhance the appearance somewhat, but the basic graininess is a property of the film. Fine grain developers mask grain by eating away the edges of the grains, making them softer, and then plating out some of the dissolved silver. Pyro may mask grain a bit with its stain. Acutance developers often enhance grain by contrast effects.

The only complaints I've heard about ABC Pyro are about its life and that it is somewhat variable in its results.