a want to buy a cheap but good viewcamera, any help?

Hi everyone,
I own a few camera's at this moment.

A pentax 67, a mamiya rz67, and a sinar f2.
I love them all but I miss the 4x5 greatness in my 6x7 cameras. And off course the sinar is kind off big and costs some time to set up. (alltough is is perfectly doable)
anyway, I want to add a folding view camera. It does not need to be the ultimate camera. Just a nic, foldable, wooden or metal view camera that I will find on ebay every now and then (with quite good optics and rigidy offcourse)
I need it to be findable for let's say 500 dollar inclusing one or two lenses ...

all suggestions are more than welcome!!
many thanks game

game said:

(with quite good optics and rigidy offcourse)

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View cameras aren't tied to any lens.

You have some issues. Some cameras don't have long enough bellows for very long lens. Some don't squeeze tightly enough for very wide lenses. Some older lenses are heavier then a VW bug so cause problems with lighter cameras. But in general your common modern lens fits any view camera.

You don't say what you intend to do with the camera. Take the time to figure that out. Different goals will lead to different needs.

Since you're in the Netherlands, wouldn't used Cambos be widely available on the market? Also a Super Speed Graphic should fit within your price range (dare I call it a "poor man's Linhof?")

I did not specify my needs because I already concluded a folable view cam will suit mine. I will only use a light wide angle and mostly a standard lens.
I will not make huge correction either. Just the usual focus things and slight perpective corrections.
optics off course are not camerabound but just the give you an idea of what price range I am looking in: 500 dollar including one or two nice lenses.

I am not restricted to buy in the netherlands. Our used equipment market is not so great. So generally I will seach ebay, preferable europe since there is taxes and sending costs.

thanks fr suggesting the graflex and cambo, any other ideas? there must a bunch of camera's that will suit my needs. (a bit over 500 is ok too )
like to hear more, kind regards game

At least in the US market you are unlikely to be able to find a folding field camera with one or two lenses for US$500, unless you get a very good deal on E-bay. Relatively few folding field cameras sell for less than US$500 by themselves and many for more than that. You can find older lenses in the US$100 range (older Fuji 150mm, Kodak 127mm Ektar, older singgle-coated symmars, etc.) but you have to search diligently for them and not be in a hurry. I don't know what European prices are; my experience is confined to the US market (E-bay and the dealers I usually buy through.)

What you can find for US$500 or less are older press cameras and monorails. You already have a monorail so aren't interested in that but you might find a press camera to your liking. Good luck!

mjs

also,
I don't mind it to be sort off vintage and wooden, since all my other cameras are quite studio-like and clean....

game said:

I will only use a light wide angle and mostly a standard lens.
I will not make huge correction either.

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How wide The Agfa or B&J woodie 5x7s with 4x5 backs might be a choice. But anything wider then I guess 120mm needs a recessed board on the Agfa/Anscos IIRC.

Outside of that if you can give up rear movements the various press cameras. The B&J is usually the cheapest and you might even get two modern lenses with luck in your budget. It'll take a fair bit of luck but it's possible.

b&j is a good idea, they seem to be quite nice and I have found them for quite cheap.
any other ideas?
kind regards game

game said:

b&j is a good idea, they seem to be quite nice and I have found them for quite cheap.
any other ideas?
kind regards game

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Dear Game,

Consider MPP. Google them and you'll find the users' club.

Cheers,

Roger

I got my burke and james commercial view (8x10) for 150$ with mint condition bellows. Just something to think about.

I indeed found some in the 200-300 range that seem quite nice and complete.
Are they rigid and thought-trough enough to be a tool that you'll use with pleasure? Or are they constantly reminding you of the you are using a cheap camera?

about the MPP, I will search into that one.
thanks.
like to hear more, kind regards Game

Burke & James and Ansco are very similar designs; I've had both and agree with others that the Ansco seems to be built a little bit better built but are also a little heavier than the B&J. The most common features of these wooden "tailboard" cameras are very complete movements and that they focus by moving the rear standard. The front standard on most of the models I've seen includes rise/fall, shift, axis tilt, and swing movements. The rear standard has rise/fall, shift, tilt, and swing movements. All movements are limited by the bellows, making these cameras pretty much equivalent to monorails in terms of available camera movements. Be aware that Ansco in particular produced a "Rembrandt" home portrait camera which has a rigid front standard (no movements other than a little rise/fall.) You probably don't want one of these.

For storage the front and rear standards move onto a short bed section and the rest of the bed folds up, usually over the back of the rear standard. This has two advantages: first, you can leave a lens mounted in the front standard. Second, the folded-up bed provides some protection to the ground glass. Most of these cameras are found with the short bed section and the rear bed section, giving about 14" (360mm) of bellows extension. They also accept additional bed sections, although these can be rather difficult to find these days.

Original bellows are likely to be rather stiff after all these years and will limit movements with shorter focal length lenses. Both my Ansco and B&J could focus a 127mm Ektar down to about five feet but at less than infinity movements were very restricted because of the stiff bellows.

Since all of these cameras are old (haven't been made for many years,) some have been used hard and are not very rigid, others are in better shape. On all of them the bellows are very old and due for replacement, if not replaced already. Focusing tracks are brass gears and racks and are adequate; on the B&J models in particular the locking mechanism may be weak but can in most cases be adjusted enough to make them useful. These cameras are often missing a knob or two: threads are US standard (they're from the 1950's and 60's at best,) and replacement knobs are common and inexpensive at almost any hardware store in the US but won't match the original knobs in appearance.

The most common models of these cameras were 5x7; 4x5 were also made. All of mine have been 5x7 models and I used both 5x7 and 4x5 backs for them. Try to get a camera with the size back you want: it can sometimes be a long wait before the other size back shows up for sale. Expect a weight of about 8.25 lbs US (3.75 kg or so,) not including lens, tripod, etc. for a 5x7 B&J, a little heavier for an Ansco, a little less for one of the smaller 4x5 models.

Would I recommend one of these cameras? Yes. They are not beautiful cameras but are very usable and, if the joints are tight, very sturdy cameras. You ought to be able to find a good one well in your price range, leaving money for a lens, etc. Good luck!

mjs

wow, great reply

one question:

you say the bj has very complete movements for a folding camera... does that mean I should rather see it as a view camera than a press camera movement wise?

what is the difference between lets say a bj and a wista/wisner/shen hao/horseman wooden folding camera?
the latter ones seem to sell for quite some more... what;s the reason for that?

kind regards Sam

game said:

what is the difference between lets say a bj and a wista/wisner/shen hao/horseman wooden folding camera?
the latter ones seem to sell for quite some more... what;s the reason for that?

kind regards Sam

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Age. The newest Ansco is 50 or so years old.

Weight. A Shen Hao isn't light but an Ansco/Agfa is heavier.

Wide angle. A Shen will go wider.

Fixed bellows. The Shen will take a bag bellows if you need it.

Spring back. The Shen has a graflok back.


But the main difference is new versus old. The Ansco/Agfas don't have a lot of collector appeal. That makes them a good deal.

that's great info nick,

the bj do not have graflok? what exactlly does that mean? can I not use my kodak readyload holder on it?
and having fixed bellows how can I replace a leak one?

thanks in advance, kind regards Game

I don't remember how the readyloader mounts. If it mounts like a normal film holder you're okay.

To replace the bellows you cut out the old ones and mount new ones. It's doable just not some thing you'd do in the field to switch from short to long bellows.

BTW I'm talking about the Agfa/Ansco models. I haven't used the B&J field camera. But they should be basically similar.

game said:

wow, great reply

one question:

you say the bj has very complete movements for a folding camera... does that mean I should rather see it as a view camera than a press camera movement wise?

what is the difference between lets say a bj and a wista/wisner/shen hao/horseman wooden folding camera?
the latter ones seem to sell for quite some more... what;s the reason for that?

kind regards Sam

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The B&J is not like a press camera at all in movements. It is much more like a studio camera with the movements being just a bit more awkward than a nice Arca Swiss or whatever. The 5x7 is a very sturdy camera when set up, just getting it setup is sometimes the challange.

As far as the comparison with wista/wisner/shen ... you wanted cheap. B&J is cheap. And usable. Noboy will ever be able to tell which camera you used to make those beautiful 5x7 contact prints. Just buy good glass, and deal with the slight incoveniences of the B&J Watson Wooden field. I do.

tim in san jose

Some models of B&J press cameras had a revolving back and better front movements than contemporary Speed Graohics. I use each, depending on the circumstances. Many older press and view cameras used an easily fabricated 4 inch square lens board. This is convenient for us who sometimes experiment with a variety of lenses on a variety of old cameras. Some models of Graphics had a focal plane shutter that permits using barrel lenses. Almost all press cameras are more rigid than many older flatbed view cameras.

We need to distinguish here between the B&J Press and the various B&J tailboard models, which are completely different. The B&J Press is a typical press camera, with a metal body, 4x4 Graphic lensboards, rotating spring back, and a bit more movement than a Speed Graphic. The tailboard models are a completely different camera, and not terribly portable, though better than a monorail in that respect. B&J also made monorails.

http://flickr.com/photos/7604084@N04/522575124/

That is, of course, the Commercial view 8x10. I'd echo everything that MJS said. The camera can feel clunky from time to time, heavy ALL the time, and hates windy conditions. The standards probably wont lock down tightly to the tracks. All of these things I have experienced, and mostly fixed quite effectively. I would say that if you are buying a B&J 8x10, buy it for the bellows condition! The wood can be cleaned, bolts can be replaced, movements and can be smoothed tightened for CHEAP, replacing bellows on such an old camera is not worth it IMO. All that being said, it is a great camera for the money that you can get it for.. Also, don't forget the calumet c1...

Cheap new camera for short and wide.

http://www.camerabellows.com/Bulldog.html

K

DBP said:

We need to distinguish here between the B&J Press and the various B&J tailboard models, which are completely different. The B&J Press is a typical press camera, with a metal body, 4x4 Graphic lensboards, rotating spring back, and a bit more movement than a Speed Graphic. The tailboard models are a completely different camera, and not terribly portable, though better than a monorail in that respect. B&J also made monorails.

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It didn't help that B&J named both the wooden tailboard and the Press "Watson". But, I don't know why you think of it as in-portable. My 5x7 folds up as much as just about any other 5x7 out there. Throw it in a rucksack with a couple of holders, a darkcloth and meter, you are good to go for a half mile hike. (What can I say, I'm lazy).

I also have a Grover 5x7. Nice camera and most parts are sharable between the tailboard and the monorail. The film backs on both, while not rotating, do fit both vertical and horizontal positions. I plan on adapting an RB67 back to a filmboard and using 6x7 on it occasionally.

Nice.

tim in san jose

When it comes to cheap large format cameras, you are really talking about one of three main choices: press camera, monorail, or old wooden field camera such as the Agfa/Ansco or B&J models we have been refering to lately. As it happens, I have never owned a press camera, have used them only once or twice, and have nothing useful to add about them. I just don't know them.

The Agfa/Ansco and Burke & James wooden tailboard cameras are very usable. As Nick and rootberry have said, they are simple cameras but old: most have faults of one sort or another but because they are simple and rugged, most can be easily fixed. They are bulky to use in the field and heavy but cheap. That's the trade-off. More modern cameras such as the Wisner (which I've had,) Tachihara, Shen Hao, etc. are all lighter and fold up much smaller, making them somewhat easier to stick in a backpack and carry off over miles of trails. They also cost more, are more fragile, better with short focal length lenses (less than about 125mm,) and prettier. It is not an easy choice but if I had the choice I would probably buy a newer camera simply because I'm a photographer, not a camera repairman. I have not always had a choice, however, and for someone with severely limited funds, one of the old Ansco or B&J tailboards is an excellent buy.

I have also used a monorail in the field: a Calumet CC-400, to be exact. Very bulky, doesn't fold up well at all, and the 4x5 model is at least as heavy as my 5x7 B&J. It has it's quirks: it is more rigid but the focusing mechanism doesn't work as well. The rotating 4x5 back is more convenient than the way most field cameras want you to remove the back, rotate it, and re-attach it. Geared front rise is very nice. But overall, it's my last choice for carrying around. I'll take the B&J before the Calumet.

Oh, and before I forget: Graflex made some unusual film holders (4x5 film magazine, reducing backs for 6x7, etc.) which were too "fat" to fit under the usual spring back, so they also introduced a back where the ground glass assembly can be removed from the camera back, and one of their Graflex film holders attached in its place. That's a Graflok back. A Graflok back also works as a regular ground glass back, so if you do have a camera with a Graflok back you aren't losing anything. You might want a Graflok back if you are interested in using roll-film backs on your view camera, otherwise you don't care. Most current film backs (Kodak and Fuji readyloads, regular film holders, etc.) work with either a standard spring-mounted camera back or a Graflok back.

mjs

GREAT POST!

It is becoming quite clear to me at this point.
I will just see if I can get a BJ in acceptable condition for less I will go for it. But knowing myself I will end up with the nicer tachihara's shen/hao etc.
Off course I allready own two sublime new sinaron lenses from my sinar f2, so in that respect I could buy a wisner/ shen hao/ without lenses almost within in my price limits. (I found a horseman for 400.)

I guess my strategie will be buying a cheap BJ, see if I like the idea of a folding camera, and if I do I will sell the sinar and buy a nice newer shen hao or something similar.

one remainging question: how do I recognise the bj's I want? when is it a bj press, and when a bj tailboard?

thanks a lot! game

one more question:
I also came along quite some busch and pressman camera's are they any good? or are the burke and james better?

like to hear, kind regards Game