A Strange Thing Happened Canon New F1 in the cold (London cold not real cold)

[Tylaar]

Hi, had a strange thing happen on Sunday and wonder if any of you Old Canon FD warriors could shed any light.

I’ve recently acquired a New Canon F1 (the electromechanical hybrid one) from Japan through the time portal roulette wheel that is eBay.

I’m due to drive to Austria on Friday for 3 or 4 weeks mountain activities over Christmas which is an annual thing for us being an Anglo-Austrian household.

It occurred to me that the F1 would be perfect (rugged and with mechanical speeds and a good low temp design spec) for packing on ski tours.

Miraculously last Sunday it got very cold here and I loaded up the old canon and set out in -3 to photograph the frost in London Fields (naturally planning to end the walk in a warm pub somewhere). Things seemed to go pretty well, the meter is a bit off but I had my sekonic and the shutter sounded like it was responding ok to speed changes low to high. After about an hour and a half I got to a local east end flower market and I noticed that the shutter sounded as if it was slowing down. I was shooting at about 1/250 but to my ear it sounded about 1/30 or 1/60. I dropped out the film. De mounted the lens and quick fired the shutter at a range of speeds. This seemed to cure the issue.

When I got home I developed the negs and bizarrely the shots I’d fired when it sounded like the shutter was slowing were well exposed like the earlier shots. Googling the issue I discovered that to actually force the shutter into manual mode you actually have to drop out the battery (which I hadn’t previously known - I just assumed the shutter went mechanical for 1/125 and faster)……. This left me puzzled as to causality……

- the camera itself was VERY cold….but it’s designed for that right?
- I’ve heard that cold temp can badly effect 4LR44 batts and assumed that that might have impacted the electronic shutter speeds
- because the exposures looked ok I’m assuming that the shutter was firing correctly but maybe the mirror was sticking a little…..

- in the warm at home I can’t replicate the issue so I’m now in a dilemma about whether to take the beast or not…… the images were lovely (I have a great 50mm 1.4 and a good 24mm 2.8)…..so any thoughts would gratefully received……I’m brand new using this Canon - I normally shoot with a couple of inherited mechanical leicas but I’m finding slr’s easier to focus than ragefinders these days!

Regards and seasons greetings all, I’ve attached some shots from london fields

 

[neilt3]

After thirty or forty years it sounds like the camera would benefit from a service .
Dried out old lubricants aren't very good when it's cold .
Get to below freezing and things don't move so well .

 

[Tylaar]

After thirty or forty years it sounds like the camera would benefit from a service .
Dried out old lubricants aren't very good when it's cold .
Get to below freezing and things don't move so well .

It’s a good point! So tempting when a camera looks good visually to assume all is good under the hood

 

[Tel]

It seems like the problem is that everything worked well in spite of your expectations. Those are some really nice shots and your camera's auto-exposure functions worked properly. Any new/old camera can benefit from a CLA, but if it ain't broke....

 

[Sirius Glass]

Invest in a CLA now and save yourself a lot of grief. When I was skiing with a camera often I would have my camera CLA'd for cold weather every two or three years.

 

[benjiboy]

The New F1s shutter was designed to work and was tested to operate at minus 30C, I have three of them I have owned for about thirty years, none of which have ever been serviced, and all of them have worked correctly for me in Britain ever since I have had them, no matter how cold it has got.
Last Sunday Tyllar the temperature was around minus 3 degrees c, and it appears by your negatives your camera worked correctly, and although I know you are new to the camera and trying to fault find, I personally wouldn't worry about the sound the shutter makes and just carry on shooting with it, and enjoy it because it's one of the most rugged 35mm film S.L.Rs ever manufactured , and my advice is, having it serviced by someone who isn't familiar with this model could cause you more problems than you think possible. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

 

[Sirius Glass]

The battery temperature could be a factor. Keep the camera in a sealed plastic bag and put it in your jacket. Take the camera out of the jacket and paper bag, wait a few minutes for the optics to chill to the ambient temperature, remove the camera from the plastic bag, shoot your photos, return the camera to the bag, then place the bag back in your jacket.

 

[E. von Hoegh]

The battery temperature could be a factor. Keep the camera in a sealed plastic bag and put it in your jacket. Take the camera out of the jacket and paper bag, wait a few minutes for the optics to chill to the ambient temperature, remove the camera from the plastic bag, shoot your photos, return the camera to the bag, then place the bag back in your jacket.

Around here, temp.s can hit minus 25F. I've used those handwarmer/footwarmer packets. Some older mechanical cameras need to be "cold hardened" with special lubricants, (although just cleaning & applying modern lubricants helps a lot) it's simpler and kinder to the camera to keep it warm, also it avoids internal condensation which can occur when a warm camera is cooled 80F or more.

 

[neilt3]

It seems like the problem is that everything worked well in spite of your expectations. Those are some really nice shots and your camera's auto-exposure functions worked properly. Any new/old camera can benefit from a CLA, but if it ain't broke....

I always maintain my equipment .
Do wait until your car engine seizes up before checking or changing the oil in your car , or do you just wait until it seizes up and buy a new engine or car ?

The New F1s shutter was designed to work and was tested to operate at minus 30C, I have three of them I have owen for about thirty years, none of which have ever been serviced, and all of them have worked correctly for me in Britain ever since I have had them, no matter how cold it has got.
Last Sunday Tyllar the temperature was around minus 3 degrees c, and it appears by your negatives your camera worked correctly, and although I know you are new to the camera and trying to fault find, I personally wouldn't worry about the sound the shutter makes and just carry on shooting with it, and enjoy it because it's one of the most rugged 35mm film S.L.Rs ever manufactured , and my advice is, having it serviced by someone who isn't familiar with this model could cause you more problems than you think possible. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

When the camera was new , it was tested to work to -30C , it's lubricants now are a long way from being new .
You used one at -3c ? that's fine , but I think the mountains of Austria where the OP's going gets a bit chillier than that .
Too late for the O.P to get it serviced before his holiday now , and hopefully it'll work just fine .
But it'll be worth taking a back up camera as well .

 

[Sirius Glass]

Invest in a CLA now and save yourself a lot of grief. When I was skiing with a camera often I would have my camera CLA'd for cold weather every two or three years.

Lubricants become more viscous over time, hence the need for a CLA.

 

[reddesert]

IMO, it's not easy to tell the difference between 1/250 and 1/60 by ear. Maybe nothing was wrong.

If you photograph in cold weather, I mean ski resort cold (say -15 to 0 C) not Arctic cold, the batteries are almost certain to temporarily lose voltage before the shutter gets sticky. Learn how to run the camera in full mechanical mode and you'll likely be fine.

 

[gone]

Figure out a way to replicate those low temps (fridge in the kitchen maybe?), and use a simple volt meter to see if the battery voltages have dropped. If not, then you "probably" have an electronic/mechanical problem w/ your camera.

When I was trained by the factory to be a Toyota technician, one of the key takeaways was to go to the simplest things first on any problem. Also, go to the easiest things to get to. If the left headlight doesn't work, plug in one that is known to work, or simply use a volt meter to see if you have juice.

We once had an almost new car where everything worked, but when you put on the left blinker the right rear taillight would dimly blink too. We tried just about everything, and the factory service rep even rolled up his sleeves and spent an entire day on the issue before announcing....put in a complete wiring harness!

You would not believe what we had to do for that. It took several people several days to replace the entire car's wiring harness from headlamps to tail lamps. When we finished it behaved exactly as before. One day one of our helpers decided to look at the taillight bulbs, even though we had already looked at them a gazillion times. That turned out to be the whole problem. One of the $1.00 bulbs had a tiny, tiny sliver of excess solder on one bulb contact that was close enough to the other bulb contact to cause an electrical feedback issue.

 

[Tylaar]

The New F1s shutter was designed to work and was tested to operate at minus 30C, I have three of them I have owen for about thirty years, none of which have ever been serviced, and all of them have worked correctly for me in Britain ever since I have had them, no matter how cold it has got.
Last Sunday Tyllar the temperature was around minus 3 degrees c, and it appears by your negatives your camera worked correctly, and although I know you are new to the camera and trying to fault find, I personally wouldn't worry about the sound the shutter makes and just carry on shooting with it, and enjoy it because it's one of the most rugged 35mm film S.L.Rs ever manufactured , and my advice is, having it serviced by someone who isn't familiar with this model could cause you more problems than you think possible. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

This feels like good advice

 

[Tylaar]

Thanks everyone for responding. Am taking the F1 but also an A1 body I bought yesterday as a back up……and I will take some pocket warmers and bags to protect them in! I must say the new F1 does have a beautiful viewfinder and the FD glass is still surprisingly reasonable used ……. And my copies are capable of some very nice renderings in bw. My only slight regret is that the camera doesn’t reach down to 1/30 in mechanical…… that extra two stops can be really useful. If anyone is aware of someone who is experienced servicing F1s in London that would be a useful contact to have!!

 

[lxdude]

Lubricants become more viscous over time, hence the need for a CLA.

It's a viscous cycle..

 

[Tylaar]

It's a viscous cycle..

 

[Tel]

On a similar note, I was out in the cold (just above freezing) a few mornings ago with my Primo Jr shooting a roll for 127 Day. The shutter definitely sounded like there was a delay in completing its cycle so I expected to have overexposed pictures when I processed the roll. But the exposures were perfect.

 

[Sirius Glass]

OR keep batteries warm in the pocket and pop them into the camera, take the photographs, move the batteries back into the pocket.

 

[benjiboy]

IMO, it's not easy to tell the difference between 1/250 and 1/60 by ear. Maybe nothing was wrong.

If you photograph in cold weather, I mean ski resort cold (say -15 to 0 C) not Arctic cold, the batteries are almost certain to temporarily lose voltage before the shutter gets sticky. Learn how to run the camera in full mechanical mode and you'll likely be fine.

 

[benjiboy]

The New F1s shutter is fully mechanical from 1/125 sec. up to 1/2000 sec, and only electronically timed from 1/60 sec down to 8 seconds to improve the accuracy over using gears at slow speeds.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

The first thing to suspect in anything with a battery is the battery. Try changing it for a known new one. As batteries approach end of life, even if it is just in storage, they loose power in the cold.

 

[lxdude]

The New F1s shutter is fully mechanical from 1/125 sec. up to 1/2000 sec, and only electrically timed from 1/60 sec down to 8 seconds.

When set to manual. On Auto they are timed electronically. Otherwise the electronics would have to select a mechanical speed; much more involved than just timing the second curtain electronically. The exception might be 1/2000- it might release the second curtain mechanically, i.e., the shortest delay between first and second curtain of any speed, with the electronics delaying the second curtain release everywhere under that.

 

[benjiboy]

I don't think I made myself clear, I omitted to mention this, and also that the shutter if the battery is dead and is removed from the camera shutter will work correctly in the manual mode from 1/90 sec. ( the flash sync speed ) and 125/sec, 250/sec, 500/sec,1000 sec,and 2000/ sec

 

[Huss]

Lovely pics.

 

[Tylaar]

Lovely pics.

Thankyou!