A platinum print by any other name . . .

[clay]

I think most people call them platinum prints because it is just a quick and easy way to make people understand what you are doing. A palladium print and platinum print are more like each other than say, a van dyke print is like a silver gelatin print (even though both use silver!). The platinum and palladium processes are identical except for the type of metal salt used. I think it is more just a common, albeit inexact, way of describing a printing method, i.e. ferric oxalate+metal salt->expose->develop and clear.

I know that some people would argue that a vodka martini is not really a martini because it contains vodka instead of gin. But either drink will help you forget about silly arguments like this.

 

[tim_walls]

Personally, I think it's all rather academic as 'palladiotype' sounds infinitely more artsy-fartsy anyway. Which is why I prefer it .

 

[bill schwab]

But either drink will help you forget about silly arguments like this.

Amen to that!

And ether will make you forget you have knees.

 

[snallan]

As an ex-chemist, I would look at a Platinum print as containing mainly platinum as the image metal, Palladium print as containing mainly palladium as the image metal, and platinum print as containing mainly Platinum group metals as the image metal (Nickelotypes anybody? ).

 

[RobertP]

Bill, After a full day of pouring plates here the wife comes out and looks at me in my nitrate stained shirt and blackened hands and asked. "Honey have you been smoking the stuff we smoked back in college?"....lol. I think I'll get a red lava lamp for the photo van.

 

[JBrunner]

Gosh almighty, I went out to do a shoot and the whole thing degenerated into mashed potatoes.

 

[removed account4]

as hunter s. thompson would say:

There is nothing more helpless and irresponsible than a man in the depths of an ether binge.

 

[2F/2F]

See what happens when you shoot instead of talk?

 

[JBrunner]

See what happens when you shoot instead of talk?

Pass the ether, please.

 

[Photo Engineer]

A platinum print by any other name...

Would be just as expensive to make.

PE

 

[sanking]

I think most people call them platinum prints because it is just a quick and easy way to make people understand what you are doing.

You are a much better man than me if you are able to call them platinum prints and make people understand what you are doing. I have never yet run into a lay person who had the slightest clue as to the process of platinum printing, and very few photographers for that matter. In fact, I recently showed a palladium print to a pretty smart fellow, mentioning that it was a palladium print. His comment was, oh, so that is what daguerreotypes look like!

Given that frame of understanding I believe we are better served by being true to our selves and calling a spade a spade. If the print is made from palladium salts I call it a palladium, if from platinum salts I call it a platinum, and if from the two salts combined I call it a pt./pd. This does not lead to greater understanding from the lay public but at least I have done my part to not add to the confusion by being exact.

Sandy King

 

[photomc]

This is really funny that there is so much passion in terminology...yet how many say they are going to have a Coke and return with a Pepsi, 7-Up, or some other soft drink or say they are going to Xerox something, when they really mean make a photo-copy, or say pass me a Kleenex when what they really want is a tissue....etc.

What I don't know is any platinum/palladium printer who says (thinks) hey my process is superior, it's better than xxxxx. The photographers I know working with the process do it because they like the way their prints look (and don't tell anyone - I think the process is easier than enlarging on silver paper). To each his/her own...there are some wonderfull photographers on this site and many are master at the process they prefer.

 

[RobertP]

Sandy, I see your point. Not to get off the topic of platinum/palladium. But an interesting thing happened just yesterday. The wife is a RN and a couple of her coworkers were over. They were having a few drinks and the wife was showing them a few plates we have been doing in wet plate collodion. As I was starting to explain the process they all said, oh! you mean like a collodion bandage? From that point they seemed to grasp how the process worked better than most photographers do. I was somewhat taken back by their knowledge. After they left I made mention to the wife of how impressed I was. She made it a point to assure me that they were just as knowledgeable about the periodic table, if not more so, than most photographers. I just went to bed thinking, yeah, I bet she schooled those girls before they got here.

 

[sanking]

Yes, the lay public I know is not stupid. They just have no idea what this kind of work involves, in the same way that we don't know much about the specifics of their professions.

However, in spite of the fact they most people don't understand the process of carbon or pt/pd I find that most people do realize that these processes are somewhat more complicated than just making ordinary "pictures" and they often want to know why I go to this effort. That gives me an opportunity to make some general comments about artistic goals to which most can relate.

Sandy King

Sandy, I see your point. Not to get off the topic of platinum/palladium. But an interesting thing happened just yesterday. The wife is a RN and a couple of her coworkers were over. They were having a few drinks and the wife was showing them a few plates we have been doing in wet plate collodion. As I was starting to explain the process they all said, oh! you mean like a collodion bandage? From that point they seemed to grasp how the process worked better than most photographers do. I was somewhat taken back by their knowledge. After they left I made mention to the wife of how impressed I was. She made it a point to assure me that they were just as knowledgeable about the periodic table, if not more so, than most photographers. I just went to bed thinking, yeah, I bet she schooled those girls before they got here.

 

[clay]

FWIW, I agree that precision in terminology is a good idea. I don't ever label any of my prints other than what they are: palladium, gumover palladium, whatever. I am actually a stickler about it for my own work. I just tend to cut people some slack when they call something in passing a 'platinum print' when I know and they know that it is not exactly that.

I personally think palladium looks better than platinum, and the only rationale I can figure for doing a print in pure platinum is to gain some sort of exclusive cachet from the crazy cost involved in making a pure platinum print. Which is sort of bogus, in my opinion.

You are a much better man than me if you are able to call them platinum prints and make people understand what you are doing. I have never yet run into a lay person who had the slightest clue as to the process of platinum printing, and very few photographers for that matter. In fact, I recently showed a palladium print to a pretty smart fellow, mentioning that it was a palladium print. His comment was, oh, so that is what daguerreotypes look like!

Given that frame of understanding I believe we are better served by being true to our selves and calling a spade a spade. If the print is made from palladium salts I call it a palladium, if from platinum salts I call it a platinum, and if from the two salts combined I call it a pt./pd. This does not lead to greater understanding from the lay public but at least I have done my part to not add to the confusion by being exact.

Sandy King

 

[Trevor Crone]

For the purist only....Richard Sullivan (of B&S) raised the issue that if you use the same developer for Pt/Pd it becomes loaded with Pt and Pd ions. So you cannot get a pure Pt or Pd if using this developer. A fresh developer is required if doing Pt and/or Pd only prints.

As I'm controling contrast by the dichromate method I'm going to need (if I was a purist) something in the region of 18 different developers!!! That's 6 for each process

 

[Davec101]

I remember speaking to a friend last year who had tested some the of most well known platinum prints for various museums in the U.S and U.K. From what I gather around 80% were actually Platinum-Palladium prints as opposed to straight platinum prints, which is kinda interesting.

As for me I’m with Ian on this one.

But the vast majority of people I talk to about platinum prints don't know what palladium is and couldn't care less. The technical specifics are irrelevant for them - they want to know about the pictures, why I make them, and how the pictures make them feel. Abbreviating to just "platinum" actually helps them because it makes the geeky/techy side just a little bit more human.

If I'm talking to someone who does care about the technical specifics then of course I explain the role palladium plays, the ratios I use, the paper, etc.

Using long, complicated, jargon-like words when they're not necessary just switches people off. It's a matter of understanding what your audience wants and talking at the level of detail that's right for them. That's not lying, that's just good communication.

 

[Ian Leake]

I suppose the fundamental question is this: does "platinum print" mean a print made using one of the five or so processes that use platinum and other members of the platinum family of metals to make an image, or does it mean a print made specifically from pure platinum?
If forced to a definition I think I would go with the former. The specific metals used are really a technical detail, as is the specific process used, the developer, the paper, etc. The technical details are very important for some audiences (e.g. most of the people reading this thread and collectors), but irrelevant to many other audiences.

 

[Ian Leake]

I've been thinking a bit more about some of the questions raised on this thread. How does the following definition work for you?

-----

A platinum print is a print made using one of several processes which use the platinum family of metals to form an image under ultraviolet light.

Platinum printers use numerous process variations to achieve the particular aesthetic they are seeking. The main variations include printing on different papers, adding additional metals such as palladium to the emulsion, and using different chemical treatments while making the print.

Platinum printing is a contact printing process which requires a negative the same size as the final print. There are several ways of creating these negatives including in a large format camera, under an enlarger, or using a computer system.

Regardless of how the negatives are made, the actual prints are made by hand: they can't be made by a machine, and they can't be made by a computer system.

 

[Davec101]

Works for me, well thought out

I've been thinking a bit more about some of the questions raised on this thread. How does the following definition work for you?

-----

A platinum print is a print made using one of several processes which use the platinum family of metals to form an image under ultraviolet light.

Platinum printers use numerous process variations to achieve the particular aesthetic they are seeking. The main variations include printing on different papers, adding additional metals such as palladium to the emulsion, and using different chemical treatments while making the print.

Platinum printing is a contact printing process which requires a negative the same size as the final print. There are several ways of creating these negatives including in a large format camera, under an enlarger, or using a computer system.

Regardless of how the negatives are made, the actual prints are made by hand: they can't be made by a machine, and they can't be made by a computer system.

 

[sanking]

A couple of comments.

First, it is not the platinum family of metals that form the image under ultraviolet light. The light sensitive metal is ferric oxalate, which reacts on exposure to UV light to give ferrous oxalate. The ferrous oxalate which is formed by the UV light functions as a reducing agent which converts the noble metal salt to a metallic state via a chemical reaction.

Second, many people (those who use only palladium salt in the emulsion and dichromate as the contrast control) print only in pure palladium and don't use any platinum metal at all. Is it OK to call these platinum prints even though they contain zero amount of platinum?

Also, I frequently make kallitype prints which are then toned with either palladium or platinum. Since the more noble metal replaces the silver metal the final print is one which is made up of a very high percentage (90% plus) of the toning metal. In essence, if I tone a kallitype print with platinum the print then contains a much higher percentage of platinum metal than a print made from pure palladium (which contains no platinum at all), or for that matter the toned kallitype contains more platinum metal than a print made from a 1:1 mix of palladium and platinum salts in the emulsion. Is it OK to call these platinum toned kallitypes platinum prints?

I think the real point is that many people want to use the term "platinum printing" because the word platinum is pretty much a synonym for something that costs a lot, and that is the real appeal of these prints to the "lay public." By contrast, the lay public by and large knows nothing about palladium, and even though pure palladium is in many ways a much more elegant process than pure platinum, or pt/pd, it does not speak money as does platinum.

Sandy King

I've been thinking a bit more about some of the questions raised on this thread. How does the following definition work for you?

-----

A platinum print is a print made using one of several processes which use the platinum family of metals to form an image under ultraviolet light.

Platinum printers use numerous process variations to achieve the particular aesthetic they are seeking. The main variations include printing on different papers, adding additional metals such as palladium to the emulsion, and using different chemical treatments while making the print.

Platinum printing is a contact printing process which requires a negative the same size as the final print. There are several ways of creating these negatives including in a large format camera, under an enlarger, or using a computer system.

Regardless of how the negatives are made, the actual prints are made by hand: they can't be made by a machine, and they can't be made by a computer system.

 

[Colin Graham]

Nice post Sandy. I would think it is always better to educate than try to appeal to vague notions or outright misinformation. It seems if someone is truly interested they will want to know the true process, or they are a snob who cares more about the label than the work. Of course this presupposes that they gave a damn to begin with.

 

[Ian Leake]

First, it is not the platinum family of metals that form the image under ultraviolet light. The light sensitive metal is ferric oxalate, which reacts on exposure to UV light to give ferrous oxalate. The ferrous oxalate which is formed by the UV light functions as a reducing agent which converts the noble metal salt to a metallic state via a chemical reaction.

I don’t see a contradiction with this Sandy. You’ve described how the image forms at a deeper level of detail than I did. For the lay public it’s enough to say that image is formed from the noble metal. For people who want to know more, there’s a chemical process involved as you’ve described.

Second, many people (those who use only palladium salt in the emulsion and dichromate as the contrast control) print only in pure palladium and don't use any platinum metal at all. Is it OK to call these platinum prints even though they contain zero amount of platinum?

I was trying to find a form of words that meant that using platinum is a requirement to it being called a platinum print, while other metals are an additive. Personally I wouldn’t consider a “pure” palladium print to be a platinum print with or without trace amounts of platinum. I think it would also be stretching things to call an extreme Ptd ratio such as 1:11 a “platinum print” but I’d rather leave it to people’s conscience than try to dictate a purity standard.

Perhaps this would be a better first sentence: “A platinum print is a print made using one of several processes which uses platinum to form an image under ultraviolet light.”

Also, I frequently make kallitype prints which are then toned with either palladium or platinum. Since the more noble metal replaces the silver metal the final print is one which is made up of a very high percentage (90% plus) of the toning metal. In essence, if I tone a kallitype print with platinum the print then contains a much higher percentage of platinum metal than a print made from pure palladium (which contains no platinum at all), or for that matter the toned kallitype contains more platinum metal than a print made from a 1:1 mix of palladium and platinum salts in the emulsion. Is it OK to call these platinum toned kallitypes platinum prints?

My instinctive answer is that “platinum toned kallitypes” is a more appropriate label. I’m no expert on kallitypes (so would bow to your and others judgement), but if there’s a fundamentally different process then to label them “platinum prints” would seem like an attempt to deceive.

As I said earlier in the thread, there should never be an attempt to deceive. The important thing is that our communication is pitched at the right level for the audience. That means balancing the need for full disclosure with the need to be understood – and it’s more important to be understood than it is to reveal all the technical details.

I think the real point is that many people want to use the term "platinum printing" because the word platinum is pretty much a synonym for something that costs a lot, and that is the real appeal of these prints to the "lay public." By contrast, the lay public by and large knows nothing about palladium, and even though pure palladium is in many ways a much more elegant process than pure platinum, or pt/pd, it does not speak money as does platinum.

It’s the nature of our society that the rarity (and price) of raw materials is a significant influence on the market price charged for an artwork. People tend to pay more for a gold necklace than they do for a silver necklace, but in many ways silver is a more beautiful metal than gold. Similarly, in the past painters often used ultramarine (lapis lazuli) specifically because by doing so they demonstrated the wealth of their clients.

Perhaps some people do feel the need to label their palladium prints as “platinum prints” for this reason, although I haven’t seen this personally. This would sadden me because, although I don’t particularly like the palladium aesthetic (that’s just my taste not a value judgement), I would hope that people would call a palladium print a “palladium print” and allow the strength of their work to create the value.

 

[Ian Leake]

I would think it is always better to educate... (snip)

It's always best to educate. But do you teach a 5 year-old how to design rocket engines?

It seems if someone is truly interested they will want to know the true process, or they are a snob who cares more about the label than the work. Of course this presupposes that they gave a damn to begin with.

Many people are interested in art but lack the education, awareness or intellect to grasp the finer points of photographic technique or chemistry. The starting point for education is successful communication; and the starting point of successful communication is understanding. So if we want to educate them then it's our responsibility to talk at a level that they understand.

 

[Colin Graham]

Well, you treat people how you want, and I'll do the same. Printing is hardly rocket science. I'm not saying I'll bore people with endless minutia, but if they ask and seem interested, I'll certainly fill in the blanks. Nothing is that hard to explain if you have a good grasp on the subject. But I label things the way I do for me ultimately, no one else. It's important to me that the process I use is accurately described- it's a wonderful terminus for a journey of learning and tradition.