A Path to Art World Fame & Fortune

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Is there a course on not being easily offended? Because you need a thick skin to succeed in the world.

He's a moderator. Insulting your customers is not good business practice. You shouldn't need an advanced course in an academic facility to learn that. It's just common sense which apparently, they don't teach.
 

Mike Lopez

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He's a moderator. Insulting your customers is not good business practice. You shouldn't need an advanced course in an academic facility to learn that. It's just common sense which apparently, they don't teach.
Is this the point at which Koraks clutches the pearls while taking offense at your insult?
 

Pieter12

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He's a moderator. Insulting your customers is not good business practice. You shouldn't need an advanced course in an academic facility to learn that. It's just common sense which apparently, they don't teach.

Since I don't subscribe, I don't consider myself a customer. Plus, I don't get insulted easily. I have always worked in a creative field where politics, rejection and attempts at humiliation are just part of the gig.
 
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Alan:
I struggle with the meaning of the text in the threads in Photro here that are specialized discussions between the trained chemists.
That is because I'm not a trained chemist.
And I wouldn't be offended in any way if someone noted that struggle.
Nothing in anything you have posted here on Photrio indicates you have experience in the academic realm that the study referenced inhabits.
Why do you expect not to struggle with it? I do! It is hard, hard work to read it! And I have at least some academic background.

Matt: Your comments are put-down as well. I can read. So can most people here at Photrio even though it is not a scientific forum. Especially as photographers and often wannabe artists, I think we know more about this subject than most academics. In any case, their Abstract clearly defines that they were not looking at commercial success to provide access to high-prestige venues. So we should discount the Avedons and the Annie Leibovitz's.

Abstract​

In areas of human activity where performance is difficult to quantify in an objective fashion, reputation and networks of influence play a key role in determining access to resources and rewards. To understand the role of these factors, we reconstructed the exhibition history of half a million artists, mapping out the coexhibition network that captures the movement of art between institutions. Centrality within this network captured institutional prestige, allowing us to explore the career trajectory of individual artists in terms of access to coveted institutions. Early access to prestigious central institutions offered life-long access to high-prestige venues and reduced dropout rate. By contrast, starting at the network periphery resulted in a high dropout rate, limiting access to central institutions. A Markov model predicts the career trajectory of individual artists and documents the strong path and history dependence of valuation in art.
 

Sirius Glass

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You did it again. For such a smart guy, you must have missed the course on The Art of Communicating Without Being Offensive.

No, he stated it as we world is. He has no obligation to sugar coat it. Besides you might be diabetic and sugar coating would be bad for you. There is no crime in having an education beyond high school.
 

Sirius Glass

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Matt: Your comments are put-down as well. I can read. So can most people here at Photrio even though it is not a scientific forum. Especially as photographers and often wannabe artists, I think we know more about this subject than most academics. In any case, their Abstract clearly defines that they were not looking at commercial success to provide access to high-prestige venues. So we should discount the Avedons and the Annie Leibovitz's.

Abstract​

In areas of human activity where performance is difficult to quantify in an objective fashion, reputation and networks of influence play a key role in determining access to resources and rewards. To understand the role of these factors, we reconstructed the exhibition history of half a million artists, mapping out the coexhibition network that captures the movement of art between institutions. Centrality within this network captured institutional prestige, allowing us to explore the career trajectory of individual artists in terms of access to coveted institutions. Early access to prestigious central institutions offered life-long access to high-prestige venues and reduced dropout rate. By contrast, starting at the network periphery resulted in a high dropout rate, limiting access to central institutions. A Markov model predicts the career trajectory of individual artists and documents the strong path and history dependence of valuation in art.

Neither moderator has insulted or put you down. The perception is all that of your own making. Perhaps you need to address that off line.
 
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Is this the point at which Koraks clutches the pearls while taking offense at your insult?

I'm allowed more flexibility. I'm neither a moderator nor an academic. :smile:
 
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Where I come from, we call that "hypocrisy," regardless of its source.

You're right. But I'm tired of insults from moderators. They should moderate and keep their opinions to themselves.
 

VinceInMT

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……They should moderate and keep their opinions to themselves.

I disagree. The moderators have provided lots of high quality information, both technical and otherwise, as well as their opinions on on a variety of topics.

As to the subject study, I found it both valuable and enlightening and would have been good supplemental material in the Professional Practices classes I took at the university a couple years ago. Over the years I’ve read LOTS of academic studies and I found this one neither “flawed” or “deficient in scope.” The authors stated their goals and kept the scope narrow to control the variables. That the “scope” may not have satisfied some readers is just an invitation for those readers to mount their own study. To challenge a study as flawed, it’s really necessary to point out its errors, such as in its data analysis methods, not that the scope was too narrow.
 
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I disagree. The moderators have provided lots of high quality information, both technical and otherwise, as well as their opinions on on a variety of topics.

As to the subject study, I found it both valuable and enlightening and would have been good supplemental material in the Professional Practices classes I took at the university a couple years ago. Over the years I’ve read LOTS of academic studies and I found this one neither “flawed” or “deficient in scope.” The authors stated their goals and kept the scope narrow to control the variables. That the “scope” may not have satisfied some readers is just an invitation for those readers to mount their own study. To challenge a study as flawed, it’s really necessary to point out its errors, such as in its data analysis methods, not that the scope was too narrow.

OK. The study isn't flawed; it's too narrow. The point is it left out important analysis that may have been available from the data they had. Why study half a million data points and not include how the huge number of famous artists' and photographers' commercial successes catapulted them to fame in museums and galleries? I think that's important.

If I was a parent with a child with artistic intent, I would like to show him that he can use his talents commercially, feed his family, and still look for artistic recognition. He doesn't have to commit his life running around trying to make deals with exhibitors, museums and galleries while sleeping in my basement when he's 35. :smile:
 
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MurrayMinchin

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It is not too narrow.

It is what it is.
 
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MurrayMinchin

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My second one man show was B&W prints from a six month sea kayaking trip on BC's coast, using a 4x5 field camera.

While discussing the shows installation and opening night reception, the museums curator said something like, "This would have been really interesting if you had photographed the people who live on the coast".

The assistant curators eyes widened and her head went back bit as she looked at me (she's a friend from high school) but I replied something like, "Well, that's a moot point" and continued discussing the show as if the curator had never said it.

Opinions are essentially weightless in this world...few things are absolute...being 100% correct is highly improbable.

People shouldn't get their panties bunched up so easily and be prepared to change their opinion when someone offers up contrary information never considered before.
 
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MattKing

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Matt: Your comments are put-down as well. I can read. So can most people here at Photrio even though it is not a scientific forum. Especially as photographers and often wannabe artists, I think we know more about this subject than most academics. In any case, their Abstract clearly defines that they were not looking at commercial success to provide access to high-prestige venues. So we should discount the Avedons and the Annie Leibovitz's.

Not a put-down Alan. It wasn't intended as one, but if you read it that way, I'm sorry for that.
It is a specialized study, and just like almost any specialized treatise it is a struggle to wade through it without first being steeped in the specialty.
Being able to read isn't enough to avoid the struggle.
That is all I'm saying. It isn't a comment on your intelligence or your photographic experience - just an observation about your viewing a typically dense academic product through non-academic eyes.
The academic world is often a strange beast indeed. And there is nothing wrong or embarrassing or demeaning about having to struggle ones way through something written for use in it.
And to be clear, no moderation is involved in anything I've said - I'm just a member who has enough mostly tangential experience with the academic world to know that the practical applicability of much that has been written is usually extremely narrow and limited. I would have posted the same thing during the 15+ years before I became a moderator.
When I've needed to glean value from a particular academic work, it almost always mean that I've got a lot of work ahead of me. I have no trouble acknowledging my struggle.
 

Pieter12

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the huge number of famous artists' and photographers' commercial successes catapulted them to fame in museums and galleries?

Seat-of-the-pants analysis tells me there are very few artists who have been able to cross the line from commercial to fine art based on their commercial success. Sure, many fine art photographers and painters have worked commercially, but that is not what got them into galleries and museums. But beyond talent, luck, hard work and perseverance it is, as the study reinforces, early success and connections in major art schools and major markets. Obviously there are and will be exceptions.

Avedon tried hard for years to get recognized as a legitimate artist, could not get a museum or gallery show until later in his life--despite his enormous commercial success. It is only recently that editorial and fashion photography has been deemed bona fide, shown and acquired as part of a collection.
 
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awty

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My second one man show was B&W prints from a six month sea kayaking trip on BC's coast, using a 4x5 field camera.

While discussing the shows installation and opening night reception, the museums curator said something like, "This would have been really interesting if you had photographed the people who live on the coast".

You could just take another 6 months off and do it again.
 
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MurrayMinchin

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You could just take another 6 months off and do it again.
A grand idea, but my wife (and paddling partner) got her shoulder wrecked in a car accident. Highly advise adventuring while young, fit, & healthy...before careers and before a house mortgage or children.

Don't need to take time off, as I'm retired. (Sweeeeeeeeet).

We have plans to explore Canada, so will not be bored or run out of material.
 

chriscrawfordphoto

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Seat-of-the-pants analysis tells me there are very few artists who have been able to cross the line from commercial to fine art based on their commercial success. Sure, many fine art photographers and painters have worked commercially, but that is not what got them into galleries and museums. But beyond talent, luck, hard work and perseverance it is, as the study reinforces, early success and connections in major art schools and major markets. Obviously there are and will be exceptions.

Avedon tried hard for years to get recognized as a legitimate artist, could not get a museum or gallery show until later in his life--despite his enormous commercial success. It is only recently that editorial and fashion photography has been deemed bona fide, shown and acquired as part of a collection.

I think he meant fine artists who were successful at selling their work without being in major museums or galleries. People like me. There have been a lot of fine art photographers who made a living doing their work by selling directly to collectors or selling through local galleries, but weren't famous in the 'art world' until late in life, or even after they died.
 

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Is this the point at which Koraks clutches the pearls while taking offense at your insult?

Apparently.

As @MattKing pointed out, academic articles aren't as accessible as some other texts. When it comes to publications in some realms (let's say Math, Physics etc.) people accept this rather easily. When it comes to texts in other fields, I suppose they don't recognize the complexities because at first glance, the text appears to be quite simple. Much of the complexity is hidden - but it's there alright. It becomes apparent if you really try to understand the mechanics of the research, or even try to replicate it. At that point, issues related to definitions, operationalization and methods (which in itself is kind of a universe) become really pressing. People with training in academic research recognize this, because of their training. Lay people don't always recognize this and tend to oversimplify matters. That's not an insult any more than pointing out that for people with no training in legal matters, legislation can be complex and difficult to make sense of. Training makes a difference; it's there for a reason and it's just not realistic to expect to be capable of the same things lacking training as someone who has had this training. With sports, everyone recognizes this, but for some reason, when it comes to academia, apparently it's insulting to some to point out the same simple reality.

their Abstract clearly defines that they were not looking at commercial success to provide access to high-prestige venues. So we should discount the Avedons and the Annie Leibovitz's.

No. That means that the Avedons and Leibovitzes in the research could still be there, and most likely there were a bunch of them, but what was not investigated is how their different route to success worked exactly. They are part of the flow in figure 2F that starts bottom left and ends top right. Of this group, they write the following:

As Fig. 2F illustrates, 240 artists who began their career in low-prestige institutions did break through, having the average prestige of their last five recorded exhibits in high-prestige institutions. We find that those who do break through do so within the first 10 years of their careers (fig. S10a). We also find that among their first five exhibits, breakout artists exhibit in institutions with a wider range of rankings, their initial prestige standard deviation being 18.6%, compared to 10.3% for those who did not break through (p = 10−22, fig. S10b)
In keeping with the scope of the research, the authors reflect on the trajectories of these 'break-through' artists only in terms of how they exhibited their work in the kinds of ways that are central to the definition of career success used here: at venues with great centrality (which happens to correlate to high monetary valuation of sold art). The Avedons and Leibovitzes wouldn't be excluded from the research. Their achievements are just not the focal point, in the same way that the particular career paths and achievements of sculptors, pilots, bakers and postmen who turned photographers weren't central to this research.

The study isn't flawed; it's too narrow.

This is one of the statemens why my feedback to you has been direct, and lacking sugar coating as @Sirius Glass put it. If your critique of the article is offered in the form of imperatives, which suggest that you know what could and should have been done, then you make yourself vulnerable to counter-criticism that identifies the errors in your assumptions. If you would phrase your thoughts in a different way, you might be met with a different response. Had you for instance started out in this thread by asking "hey, does anybody know why they studied A and excluded B? B seems logical to me, but they only focused on A and I don't really understand why." Things might have developed differently. Instead, you made statements (part false, that's what I initially responded to) about what you personally feel are shortcomings in the study and formulated your views as imperatives towards the authors. Taking that example of the marathon runner again: it would be a bit like me walking up to Kipchoge and starting to explain to him that he should hold his hands a little lower when running because I feel it looks funny the way he's doing it.

The point is it left out important analysis that may have been available from the data they had.

The point is that these particular data would not support the kind of analysis that you envision. So go ahead and set up a new project, gather new data and do it your way. It's a totally different research than the one discussed here. They're only tangentially related. You'll find that out when you'd start drafting a set of research questions, figuring out suitable methods and identifying potential data sources. At that point you'll see that each of these are significantly different from what's available in this report. The only area where there's some overlap would be in the theoretical framework.

If I was a parent with a child with artistic intent, I would like to show him that he can use his talents commercially, feed his family, and still look for artistic recognition.

That's fine, and nothing stops you from raising a kid that way. However:
1: This article doesn't cater to parents in raising kids.
2: Your statement suggests that you're not so much interested in what might come out of such an analysis as you've hinted at, but that you have a predetermined expectation of what should come out. In other words, there's a strong bias. This is (again) not an insult, but just a reflection on human nature - we're all biased. In research, what's important is to realize this and figure out how it could inform a research project, but also how it threatens them, as well as the interpretation of outcomes of existing projects. In this particular case, what appears to happen is that your bias (what you hope that might come out of a project like this) results in a rejection of the relevance of the present research and ex-post suggestions to change its scope in fundamental ways that are not supported by the data used. It's a free world, of course, but that also entails that people will then point it's nonsensical to make such suggestions. Especially if they just keep coming, even after it has been pointed out multiple times and in multiple ways that what you appear to want, is just not part of the package here.

Also:
Insulting your customers is not good business practice.
I'm not your supplier. You're not my customer. This is not business. Your statement is out of place and not applicable here.

There have been a lot of fine art photographers who made a living doing their work by selling directly to collectors or selling through local galleries, but weren't famous in the 'art world' until late in life

Yes, nobody doubts this and your example is inspirational (great to hear about the double-career success of your son). What's important to note, though, is that success in terms of making a (good) living is not what the authors in this paper investigated. Their definition of success is made along the lines of reputation, exhibition history and work valuation. The authors themselves explicitly state that this is a limited view of the much broader construct of success:
We also focused on success measures tied to institutional access, ignoring multiple dimensions through which art and artists enrich our society (18). Yet, even with this limited focus [...]
(emphasis mine)

Taking a broader view on the construct of success would certainly be possible, but it would require different questions, different methods and different data. The same is true for investigating alternative paths to success (even in the narrow conceptualization in this research) that rely on other achievements than art exhibitions.
 
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VinceInMT

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koraks, thanks for your well-stated overview on academic research. This again shows why moderators’ contributions beyond moderation adds value to this site.

Your point about “people with training in academic research“ really does address the issues raised outside the study itself as many are not aware of the rigor and methods involved with setting up studies such as this. The research and design class I took in grad school was the most challenging course I attempted, almost like a foreign language with its heavy emphasis on what question is being asked, removing bias from the design, methods of collecting data, and then all the ways to doing statistical analysis: do I use inferential, predictive, causal, and then deal with standard deviation, regression, etc. While no longer involved in setting up that type of thing, I still have to break out the old books when looking at a study and trying to understand what it tells me.
 
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Not a put-down Alan. It wasn't intended as one, but if you read it that way, I'm sorry for that.
It is a specialized study, and just like almost any specialized treatise it is a struggle to wade through it without first being steeped in the specialty.
Being able to read isn't enough to avoid the struggle.
That is all I'm saying. It isn't a comment on your intelligence or your photographic experience - just an observation about your viewing a typically dense academic product through non-academic eyes.
The academic world is often a strange beast indeed. And there is nothing wrong or embarrassing or demeaning about having to struggle ones way through something written for use in it.
And to be clear, no moderation is involved in anything I've said - I'm just a member who has enough mostly tangential experience with the academic world to know that the practical applicability of much that has been written is usually extremely narrow and limited. I would have posted the same thing during the 15+ years before I became a moderator.
When I've needed to glean value from a particular academic work, it almost always mean that I've got a lot of work ahead of me. I have no trouble acknowledging my struggle.

It's impolite and a cheap debating style to try to make points by attacking someone's intelligence, aptitude and academic achievements rather than their conclusions. I believe you know better. Attack their ideas not the person.
 
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Seat-of-the-pants analysis tells me there are very few artists who have been able to cross the line from commercial to fine art based on their commercial success. Sure, many fine art photographers and painters have worked commercially, but that is not what got them into galleries and museums. But beyond talent, luck, hard work and perseverance it is, as the study reinforces, early success and connections in major art schools and major markets. Obviously there are and will be exceptions.

Avedon tried hard for years to get recognized as a legitimate artist, could not get a museum or gallery show until later in his life--despite his enormous commercial success. It is only recently that editorial and fashion photography has been deemed bona fide, shown and acquired as part of a collection.

Wouldn't it be nice to know what that percentage is? Frankly, in photography, that number is probably pretty high. Avedon in advertising, HCB and Weegee worked as photojournalists, Leibovitz, a portraitist. Cappa a war correspondent. Curry a photographer for NatGen. I'm not sure where to put LIk because he had his own galleries around the world.
 
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