A NEW (as of 2022) ISO 200 COLOR NEGATIVE FILM FROM ADOX

[real_liiva]

Yeah, the cast in those samples can be corrected out relatively easily. I understand the film is probably even worse suited for darkroom printing than Phoenix due to this but it's certainly scannable. TBH going forward in the future i would rather have a color film with a cast but a "usable" speed of like at least iso 25 rather than a film that renders portra level colors at iso 3.

 

[LeoniD]

So, do I read this correctly? https://www.adox.de/Photo/elementor-13690/
Does Helios really have this weird layer layout, exact opposite of a typical color film? Why does it have two filter layers? I wonder how it will look "redscaled", since example photos do look red, which would make sense if it was coated in that order by accident

 

[halfaman]

So, do I read this correctly? https://www.adox.de/Photo/elementor-13690/
Does Helios really have this weird layer layout, exact opposite of a typical color film? Why does it have two filter layers? I wonder how it will look "redscaled", since example photos do look red, which would make sense if it was coated in that order by accident

It is the structure of color photographic paper that uses tungsten balanced bulbs, I think it has no filter interlayers. Very strange for daylight color film taking into account that green and red silver layers are said to have some blue sensitivity, putting the blue layer the lastest seems like a bad idea. In a standard color film, blue sensitive layer is the first one and then blue is filtered in a yellow interlayer to prevent exposure of the remaining emulsions.

 

[koraks]

Does Helios really have this weird layer layout, exact opposite of a typical color film? Why does it have two filter layers?

It's remarkable, for sure.
Like @halfaman remarks, this layer order is reminiscent of color RA4 paper. But this doesn't have (or need) filter layers. Btw, I've written about that here: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photograph...r-film-and-paper-are-fundamentally-different/

At this point, I suppose we can only guess why this layer order has been chosen for a color film product. If I were to go out on a limb, I could imagine it has something to do with making a sufficiently fast cyan/red layer. In a regular color film stack, with red/cyan at the bottom, this layer needs to be comparatively fast. And since red-sensitization AFAIK is already fairly inefficient, maybe (maybe!) the rationale was in it being easier to put this layer on top so it doesn't suffer from the further light loss of filtering through the other layers. Speculation, speculation.

The example images do make more sense to me, now. I can only see this layer order work under two conditions, which to an extent form a tradeoff among themselves:
1: The top filter layer (which typically already has a UV filter) would have to filter out a considerable part of the blue spectrum. This is because of the inherent blue-sensitivity of silver halides. By simply lopping off that part of the spectrum altogether, you could prevent crossover, i.e. formation of cyan and magenta dyes in response to blue light.
2: Or one might simply accept this crossover and take it for what it is.
Given the examples with the decidedly pink skies, it seems that a hefty dose of #2 has been thrown into the mix. We've only seen a few examples, evidently, but I expect that this film will be essentially incapable of imaging a pure blue and it'll struggle with greens as well. So far, the examples are in line with this.

If @ADOX Fotoimpex could shed some light on this (any color you like, Mirko!), I'd be very grateful. Not that it matters all that much in the end, but you know, just curiosity. In particular, I'd be interested to learn what the challenges have led Adox to opt for this layer order, and what this means for future color films.

It is clear that this choice has resulted in a unique product in the market today.

 

[LeoniD]

It is the structure of color photographic paper

Hm, never noticed it in datasheets
Do you have any articles as to why? In duplicating film, AFAIK, magenta forming layer goes first to improve percieved sharpness, placement of the other two makes sense too, but the RA4 paper layer placement seems odd

Edit:nvm, I've read the koraks's article. Still, this layer order doesn't make any sense for a film

 

[koraks]

Do you have any articles as to why?

See my post above: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photograph...r-film-and-paper-are-fundamentally-different/

 

[LeoniD]

See my post above: https://tinker.koraks.nl/photograph...r-film-and-paper-are-fundamentally-different/

I was reading it at the same time you've posted this Thanks

I don't think any film, in 1930s or in modern day had any issues with mottling though, and it doesn't seem to offer any other benefits while having a ton of drawbacks-you still need to make the bottom layer fast, the only difference is in what dye it produces

 

[koraks]

I don't think any film, in 1930s or in modern day had any issues with mottling though

No, that was (and still is) a paper-specific problem.

you still need to make the bottom layer fast, the only difference is in what dye it produces

But I suspect it's a lot easier to make a fast blue/yellow layer than a red/cyan one. It's not just about which dye it produces, it's about spectral sensitivity mostly. And blue photons just have more punch than red ones, which means there's just a lot more energy to be easily captured at that end of the spectrum. There's a reason why silver halides are inherently only UV-sensitive.

 

[halfaman]

Hm, never noticed it in datasheets
Do you have any articles as to why?

You can check it here (page 4):

https://asset.fujifilm.com/www/us/files/2020-02/58a3cafc83258dfc2560379e38fab76b/Fujicolor_Crystal_Archive_Paper_Type_DPII.pdf

Some old movie print films have a similar structure, though current Kodak 2383 color print film has green sensitivity layer first. They are also designed to work with tungsten light. No filtering interlayers either.

 

[LeoniD]

But I suspect it's a lot easier to make a fast blue/yellow layer than a red/cyan one.

I think Adox said somewhere that they have all the sensitisers and couplers figured out, just can't coat enough layers at a time

Some old movie print films have a similar structure, though current Kodak 2383 color print film has green sensitivity layer first. They are also designed to work also with tungsten light. No filtering interlayers either.

Interestingly, there books that mention svema duplicating films with "inverse" layer order (meaning magenta on the top) as far back as 70s. And it is benefitial for a technical film. But the "paper" layout for a film seems pointless and even harmful. I really want to see what Adox will say

 

[koraks]

I think Adox said somewhere that they have all the sensitisers and couplers figured out, just can't coat enough layers at a time

What does 'figured out' mean, though?
And how does the number of layers coated in a single pass relate to the layer order stack?

 

[brbo]

But the "paper" layout for a film seems pointless and even harmful. I really want to see what Adox will say

As @koraks said it before, it probably has to do with the current limitation of the speed they are at. ISO 1.5 is pretty borderline for general photography already. If they need to sell this film to finance further R&D starting with a film that has even three or four stops (guessing here) less sensitivity might prove to be a deal breaker. Better to sell something with "character" that something only a few will be able to use...

 

[LeoniD]

What does 'figured out' mean, though?

No idea. I even may be misremembering, Helios was announced a long time ago, after all

And how does the number of layers coated in a single pass relate to the layer order stack?

It doesn't
What I was trying to say is, if I remember correctly, Adox said that this film is the way it is due to limitations of their machine- "1 layer per color", etc.

As @koraks said it before, it probably has to do with the current limitation of the speed they are at. ISO 1.5 is pretty borderline for general photography already. If they need to sell this film to finance further R&D starting with a film that has even three or four stops (guessing here) less sensitivity might prove to be a deal breaker. Better to sell something with "character" that something only a few will be able to use...

1.5 with filter, 3 without(According to google translate) and I suppose it was higher before the additional filtering layer was coated

 

[koraks]

What I was trying to say is, if I remember correctly, Adox said that this film is the way it is due to limitations of their machine- "1 layer per color", etc.

I figured that that's what you were implying, but I don't yet understand how it would make sense. Hence my question; hopefully Mirko will come along at some point and clarify. Not that he's obliged to do so, of course.

 

[LeoniD]

I figured that that's what you were implying, but I don't yet understand how it would make sense. Hence my question; hopefully Mirko will come along at some point and clarify. Not that he's obliged to do so, of course.

Turns out, there's already an answer, back in 2022

HELIOS has less latitude than COLOR MISSION I because of its low speed. Any given fine grain emulsion is lacking polydispersity over a coarser grain emulsion because you do not have the larger grains inside. Exposure latitude is defined by this.
The fact that we have only three layers does not necessarily affect this. The many layers are more for color separation than overall latitude but ofcourse these things can cross when e.g. colors desturate and "fall" into brown. If you had a separate semi transparent booster layer there for a given color, it could add latitude as well.

I still don't understand why they went with monodisperse emulsions, perhaps it's "training" for 1/3 emulsions of the future Color Mission III, but then wouldn't it make more sense to still use the traditional layer order? Btw, this explanation helped me a lot with understanding how color films and multigrade papers work, so I'm very grateful to the person who wrote it

 

[koraks]

perhaps it's "training" for 1/3 emulsions of the future Color Mission III, but then it wouldn't it make more sense to still use the trasitional layer order?

Well, yes, my response would be that this still doesn't explain why they opted for this layer order...

 

[lancewielder]

We are still working on the filtration layers. Next samples to be expected in February.
I shot a roll in Istanbul in the spring this year. Not the greatest work of art in history ever seen by mankind, but if there´s interest I can upload an image.

Hi, do you have any updates on the current status of Helios? Additionally, are there plans to offer more Color Mission 200 for sale?

 

[ADOX Fotoimpex]

So, do I read this correctly? https://www.adox.de/Photo/elementor-13690/
Does Helios really have this weird layer layout, exact opposite of a typical color film? Why does it have two filter layers? I wonder how it will look "redscaled", since example photos do look red, which would make sense if it was coated in that order by accident

It has three filter layers. if all had went well it would have only needed two

 

[WhereSs]

Hi, do you have any updates on the current status of Helios? Additionally, are there plans to offer more Color Mission 200 for sale?

I'm also interested in when Helios will be released, if there's any kind of known timeline for that.

 

[mshchem]

I have absolutely ZERO interest in truly weird color negative film.

 

[Prest_400]

I have absolutely ZERO interest in truly weird color negative film.

But thankfully the market is curious and makes use of them, allowing to finance further development / keeping them in market. Unfortunately making color is a huge operation.

I am curious about the situation for new C41 films. Adox had a decent developed film but they had to go square one due to the partnership fall off. Orwo are supposedly developing a NC200 which should be a step better than their current offerings and then we have others with color legacy (Ferrania, Lucky) and Harman is also attempting. But having machinery and some engineers that worked in previous full production lines is not sufficient. Imagine, that Adox could just magically make something like Agfa Vista 200 (given they have Ilford+Agfa legacy)

 

[mshchem]

Adox has the Ciba/Ilford test coating operation in Marly. If someone would drop millions of dollars, no strings attached, including staff, the sky's the limit!

Adox can't (at this time) justify making nice fiber base paper. We will see. Adox a nice operation.

 

[brbo]

I have absolutely ZERO interest in truly weird color negative film.

And my interest in weird colour film that is a stepping stone to a proper colour film is at ELEVEN11one1one!!

It seems like Adox's 4-year-plan to a proper colour negative was overly optimistic, but if they get there in double that time... It's quite painful to see that Color Mission 200 is lost. I hope we once learn how it came about and why nobody can't recreate it anymore. It's has become my new "ektar" with even more character and grain.

 

[Ernst-Jan]

Do I have interest in an ultra low ISO film with weird colour? Honestly: not really
Do I have interest in a small business that is investing in colour film: yes!
For that reason I would for sure buy a roll when available.

 

[m00dawg]

I like my modern films of course, but I'd definitely be into a weird low ISO film. Part of the benefit of film is you can "switch sensors" whenever you like (just use another film!) and being able to get some unique results or something that nudges creativity is a good thing. Phoenix 200, Metropolis, etc. are good nods to that and I've used them with great effect.

Ektar 100 is still my favorite but nice to experiment every now and again and to have films that match planned intent. I quite like that and I think other folks would too.

Admittedly, Helios isn't at the top of my Adox wishlist. MCC-110 is at the top (I know why it's no longer available, but I still miss it). But yeah I'll be among the first in line to give it a go. Especially if it ends up in sheets.