A NEW (as of 2022) ISO 200 COLOR NEGATIVE FILM FROM ADOX

ADOX Fotoimpex · Jun 2, 2022

HELIOS has less latitude than COLOR MISSION I because of its low speed. Any given fine grain emulsion is lacking polydispersity over a coarser grain emulsion because you do not have the larger grains inside. Exposure latitude is defined by this.
The fact that we have only three layers does not necessarily affect this. The many layers are more for color separation than overall latitude but ofcourse these things can cross when e.g. colors desturate and "fall" into brown. If you had a separate semi transparent booster layer there for a given color, it could add latitude as well.

AgX · Jun 2, 2022

"polydispersity" Wissenschaft hin, Technik her... Du mußt doch mit der Zeit gehen. Es sollte heutzutage doch stattdessen heißen "polydiversity". Damit würdest Du Deinen Neukunden zeigen, daß Du kein einziges Kristall diskriminierst...

Sal Santamaura · Jun 2, 2022

AgX said:
"polydispersity" Wissenschaft hin, Technik her... Du mußt doch mit der Zeit gehen. Es sollte heutzutage doch stattdessen heißen "polydiversity". Damit würdest Du Deinen Neukunden zeigen, daß Du kein einziges Kristall diskriminierst...

Ich habe alles auf Deutch vergessen, aber Google sagt:

"polydispersity" Science or technology... you have to move with the times. It should be called "polydiversity" instead these days. This would show your new customers that you don't discriminate against a single crystal...

lantau · Jun 2, 2022

AgX said:
"polydispersity" Wissenschaft hin, Technik her... Du mußt doch mit der Zeit gehen. Es sollte heutzutage doch stattdessen heißen "polydiversity". Damit würdest Du Deinen Neukunden zeigen, daß Du kein einziges Kristall diskriminierst...

There is no discriminationm, because the emulsion was made this way. And this probably results more from a given constraint than ideological intent.

Having less diversity comes at a price, though: less resilience (latitude). But diversity can be distributed at different levels.

So there is no need to discriminate against this emulsion, because there is a diversity of emulsions available. With different levels of diversity in themselves they are all welcome and together they form a universal whole which can serve every possible photographic purpose.

May this comprehensively cover and conclude this little diversion?

lantau · Jun 2, 2022

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
We are waiting for the Color Mission I film boxes to be produced and shipped. Unfortunately we had several delays in this (like others). Despite the fact that it is uneconomical for us to finish films into black canisters with a label manually while waiting for the boxes to arrive we did so with a limited amount and will keep doing so every week. However the biggest surprise to us was the demand for Color Film. Orders came in 100x more than expected (and we based the demand on comparable films sold @ comparable prices). Color Mission I will sell out much faster than expected. So we decided to launch Color Mission II "Helios" much earlier than originally planned. This film ist the first attempt to recreate Color Mission I. It is a simplyfied version with only 1/3rd of the emulsions/layers and a low speed. More info coming soon.

You are having, or will have the data: Isn't demand for a new film going to be at a maximum, initially. Then dropping and eventually settling in a range?

Obviously everyone is going to be curious at first. Including myself. And with the way the film market is right now (product often unavailable), people behave a little like consumers in the former East Germany: when something is available, they stock up a larger number. That seems to have really caused some problem for our 'socialist' friends.

With the statement that it will last for a while I didn't rush to order. I did finally get three rolls two weeks ago, so that I can try the film myself, and because I think it supports a worthwhile cause.

After that, if it was still available, I'd need a roll every now and then for the occasional special effect. Similar to Rollei Digibase CN 200 and Adox Color Explosion. Still have one of my two rolls of the latter in the freezer, waiting for the right moment.

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
Yes if you have already finished the film to be boxed....We have a new government now and the first thing they did was raising wages by law. Applying one sticker now costs us about 25 Cents in wages only plus the cost of the sticker. The cardboard is fitted by a machine. Costs are in the range of 0,1 cents plus the price for the box which is comparable to the sticker.

Wow, takes more than a minute to put the sticker on? But it is interesting how the market is changing. If I'm not mistaken you said, a few years ago, that boxes are a thing of the past. Too expensive. Now they have redeemed themselves. They also make it easier to see what I have in the fridge.

LeoniD · Jun 2, 2022

Why would exposure latitude be narrower if the emulsion is fine-grain? Old/classic bw emulsions have a very good latitude even at very low (by today's standards) iso.
I can't find anything that would suggest that the exposure latitude is strictly dependent on polydispersity. The only thing even remotely close to this theme is this paragraph in Organic Chemistry of Photography book (Fujita S., 2004)

If the distribution of grain sizes is broad, the following disadvantages would be
considered:
1. The contrast of the characteristic curve cannot be increased.

mshchem · Jun 2, 2022

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
That is our standard since about a year. Inside the box it will have this.

That's great. That's worth an extra 10% alone

ADOX Fotoimpex · Jun 2, 2022

lantau said:
Wow, takes more than a minute to put the sticker on? But it is interesting how the market is changing. If I'm not mistaken you said, a few years ago, that boxes are a thing of the past. Too expensive. Now they have redeemed themselves. They also make it easier to see what I have in the fridge.

No, the wages are simply so high now. You can´t go by the nominal hourly wage. There are so many things on top like paid vacations, hollidays, social security (this alone is 25% extra), sick leaves, bureaucracy etc., that you have to at least double the nominal wage to arrive at the real costs per actual working hour. And yes, it takes a very long time. There are prep and after works as well, like printing the stickers, grabbing the box, sitting down, bringing it somewhere etc. I am also always surprised to what it accumulates, but manual labour in Germany is just insanely expensive now. Wer need to mechanise wherever we can or we are simply not competitive.

ADOX Fotoimpex · Jun 2, 2022

LeoniD said:
Why would exposure latitude be narrower if the emulsion is fine-grain? Old/classic bw emulsions have a very good latitude even at very low (by today's standards) iso.
I can't find anything that would suggest that the exposure latitude is strictly dependent on polydispersity. The only thing even remotely close to this theme is this paragraph in Organic Chemistry of Photography book (Fujita S., 2004)

I am not sure if I can explain it better. The more heterodisperse an emulsion is, the larger the latitude. The more monodisperse the more contrast. If you only have one grain size (monodisperse) you almost have a binary system (on or off) and all silver halides will become developable at the same light intensity threshhold. If you have many different sizes there are many more of these threshholds and thus greyscales inbetween. In modern emulsion making you tend to create more monodisperse emulsions of various sizes and then mix them thus creating the desired characteristic curve. Is this better to understand?

LeoniD · Jun 2, 2022

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
I am not sure if I can explain it better. The more heterodisperse an emulsion is, the larger the latitude. The more monodisperse the more contrast. If you only have one grain size (monodisperse) you almost have a binary system (on or off) and all silver halides will become developable at the same light intensity threshhold. If you have many different sizes there are many more of these threshholds and thus greyscales inbetween. In modern emulsion making you tend to create more monodisperse emulsions of various sizes and then mix them thus creating the desired characteristic curve. Is this better to understand?

It is, but monodisperse emulsions don't just "happen" afaik, it needs to be manufactured monodisperse. It is easier to make a low-iso monodisperse emulsion, but I just find the claim that

Any given fine grain emulsion is lacking polydispersity

a bit strange. I'm not trying to argue, of course, just trying to learn.

flavio81 · Jun 2, 2022

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
I am not sure if I can explain it better. The more heterodisperse an emulsion is, the larger the latitude. The more monodisperse the more contrast. If you only have one grain size (monodisperse) you almost have a binary system (on or off) and all silver halides will become developable at the same light intensity threshhold. If you have many different sizes there are many more of these threshholds and thus greyscales inbetween. In modern emulsion making you tend to create more monodisperse emulsions of various sizes and then mix them thus creating the desired characteristic curve. Is this better to understand?

Last week i wanted to explain to a friend why microfiche films have narrow latitude. This is a great explanation, thanks.

ADOX Fotoimpex · Jun 2, 2022

LeoniD said:
It is, but monodisperse emulsions don't just "happen" afaik, it needs to be manufactured monodisperse. It is easier to make a low-iso monodisperse emulsion, but I just find the claim that

a bit strange. I'm not trying to argue, of course, just trying to learn.

Well polydispersity means many different grain sizes. The wider the spread the more polydisperse. As outlined above a "fine grain" emulsions has only small(er) grains and no coarse grains. So the upper end of the grain size spectrum is capped.

Minolta93 · Jun 2, 2022

When will Helios film be available for the public? And what is the most likely price that it will be sold at?

flavio81 · Jun 2, 2022

Will the Helios film be named Helios-44, Helios-103, Helios-40 or maybe Helios-77M ?

AgX · Jun 3, 2022

Minolta93 said:
When will Helios film be available for the public?

Mirko stated that he expects to be able to box and sell again the Mission I film in July. And that they probably start selling the new Helios film the same time.

LeoniD · Jun 3, 2022

flavio81 said:
Will the Helios film be named Helios-44, Helios-103, Helios-40 or maybe Helios-77M ?

I'd prefer Helios 123 or maybe 81

brbo · Jun 3, 2022

ADOX Fotoimpex said:
No, the wages are simply so high now. You can´t go by the nominal hourly wage. There are so many things on top like payed vaccations, hollidays, social security (this alone is 25% extra), sick leaves, burocracy etc. that you have to at least double the nominal wage to arrive at the real costs per actual working hour. And yes, it takes a very long time. There are prep and after works as well like printing the stickers, grabbing the box, sitting down, bringing it somewhere etc. I am also always surprised to what it acumulates but manual labour in Germany is just insanely expensive now.

Imagine that you could halve the costs of manual labour from your current 0.25 EUR it takes you to put a label on the canister to 0.12 EUR.

Now, how many of that 12EUR Color Mission 200 films would you sell to your customers that now have half of their total income (and basically none of that disposable for things like analog photography)? Oh, right, you could now sell the film for 11.88 EUR!

haliderollei · Jun 3, 2022

I'm questioning the ability of Adox to produce any kind of real color film themselves; Mirko has said in a talk that it would take hundreds of millions and many engineers to come up with a film that might even compare to a Ferrania film.

Suddenly they have couplers, sensitizers and all the other jazz figured out? At least be honest if you've got a few vats of chemicals that you've got laying around and now are making some kind of film concoction and try to make some money out of it (fairly so, I want Adox to succeed); but at least be honest towards the people that are asking the questions. And maybe also let your most loyal darkroom printers know wether we will be seeing MCC/PWE paper anywhere in the upcoming 5 years.

flavio81 · Jun 3, 2022

haliderollei said:
I'm questioning the ability of Adox to produce any kind of real color film themselves; Mirko has said in a talk that it would take

Isn't Color Mission I a "real color film"? Ok, it was old production. But it shows correct colors.

But ADOX Color Implosion was more recent production, and it is a color film. Not true color, but shows they are able to produce multilayer chromogenic film.

haliderollei said:
Suddenly they have couplers, sensitizers and all the other jazz figured out?

I understand they have former engineers from Agfa and machinery from them. So they have the know-how, at least. However, even with the know-how, of course there are steps to take to create consistent, cost-effective, film, adapted to a specific coating machine. It takes time, but it doesn't seem impossible.

haliderollei said:
At least be honest if you've got a few vats of chemicals that you've got laying around and now are making some kind of film concoction and try to make some money out of it (fairly so, I want Adox to succeed)

If they want to go the "easy money, scam your customers" route, they would have taken an even EASIER path: just buy old stock film, cut it and package it as new "special" film. Just like Silberra is doing.

You can even release three different films of different speeds which are in fact the very same film. Just like Silberra, as well.

AgX · Jun 3, 2022

haliderollei said:
I'm questioning the ability of Adox to produce any kind of real color film themselves; Mirko has said in a talk that it would take hundreds of millions and many engineers to come up with a film that might even compare to a Ferrania film.

flavio81 said:
Isn't Color Mission I a "real color film"? Ok, it was old production. But it shows correct colors.

That was no production of their own, but stated to have been the result of an endeavour with another manufacturer.

And as far as I can see Mirko nowhere stated that their future "complete" colour film would be the result from only their own enterprise.
But with the acquisition of parts the Marly plant they got access to assets and likely also personnel from colour technology.

Keep also in mind that most film manufacturers have no own chemical expertise in element-synthezising thus have to rely on outside sources.

flavio81 · Jun 3, 2022

AgX said:
Keep also in mind that most film manufacturers have no own chemical expertise in element-synthezising thus have to rely on outside sources.

Source of this claim? Maybe only the smallest manufacturers, maybe Adox, but "most"?

Ferrania did their own synthesizing, in fact they had an entire building for that that was then sold off and is now known as "ferrania technologies" and now only produces medical stuff.

I'd be very surprised if Kodak didn't do it themselves, as well. Same for Fuji.

AgX · Jun 3, 2022

Only the big manufacturers as Agfa, Ferrania, Fuji, Kodak, Orwo, Tasma have/had such means. Partially out of these dedicated enterprises evolved.

And my post above is about the current situation. Thus you can delete at least 3 out of this listing. Makes 3 remain, at most.

haliderollei · Jun 3, 2022

It just does not sit well with me that they say the proceedings of these films will go into color “R&D”, what R&D? They know the R&D that will lead to anything substantial will cost them millions. Maybe me wanting them to be extremely transparent is unreasonable; but many people around me share the same sentiment.

Minolta93 · Jun 3, 2022

I'm excited and don't mind waiting another month for Adox Helios. If it is indeed an inexpensive color film, and if it isn't too expensive to ship to the US, I would love to try it. It depends how low "low speed" actually is. If it's 25ISO I'd buy it, but if it's like the repurposed print film that FPP sells at under 2ISO I wouldn't use it. I have been wanting to try something around 25ISO anyway, so I hope that's around what the speed is.

flavio81 · Jun 3, 2022

haliderollei said:
It just does not sit well with me that they say the proceedings of these films will go into color “R&D”, what R&D? They know the R&D that will lead to anything substantial will cost them millions. Maybe me wanting them to be extremely transparent is unreasonable; but many people around me share the same sentiment.

To research you need to do test coatings.

If you can sell the result of your test coating, I guess it can offset costs significantly. Isn't it?

I mean, is there something really suspicious here?

A NEW (as of 2022) ISO 200 COLOR NEGATIVE FILM FROM ADOX

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A NEW (as of 2022) ISO 200 COLOR NEGATIVE FILM FROM ADOX

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