A little rant about contrast, beginners, and gaining experience printing

[Bob Carnie]

I think my message is about becoming a better printer, unfortunately it takes practice, and if purchasing paper is not possible then I don't have a reliable answer for you.
Paper can be purchased on the internet in rolls and cut down for proofing purposes at a very reasonable price.
My methods are aimed at printers who have a darkroom and actually make prints and are willing to purchase the materials .
I am sorry if you think this is BS and it is obvious my comments are not aimed at you .
as I said just my 2cents

I don't believe your crazy, but----------us folks that simply can't operate in the manner that you suggest on an annual basis because it actually would be too costly for our means---------should just QUIT! Right.

Apart from the other good advice that you have given Mr. Carnie, this part is simply BS.

 

[Mike1234]

As Bob alludes to, "practice makes perfect", or at least practice makes better, faster, and more intuitive. We gain ability to judge a negative unaided with a densitometer, grab the most appropriate grade of paper whether it's single or multi-grade for split grade printing, and follow through with increased quality and precision.

The sad truth is not everyone can afford the cash or the time to pratice as we should. I could and did when I was 13-22 years of age and I learned quite a lot. At least I thought so.

After 18 years of doing mostly cheap (fast and dirty) photo work and and another 8 years of being completely out of the photo field I've missed more than I'll ever catch up to. I'm not even going to try full analogue although I know after some time I'll acquire the knew knowledge I need to be ralatively competitive with most people. I'm not sure how many years I have left while my mind is still plastic enough to learn and enjoy the practice of wet analogue photography. In the last many years I've acquired a very good understanding of Photoshop... though I'm 5 years behind on that now too. At any rate, I'm just going to shoot with a really good color film and print digitally.

I do enjoy reading these threads though. It reminds me of the good old days when I had the mind, cash, time, etc. to play and learn and improve my "real photography" skills.

 

[Andrew Moxom]

I think the other thing Bob was getting across is that nothing teaches more than actually doing the printing. Repeatedly until you get it. While most cannot afford this practice, he does have a point. Especially from a business perspective like Elevator. Time is money, and being good at eeking out all that one can from a negative for a client, quickly, intuitively and nailing the print every time is what they are after. You are only as good as your last print, and staying in practice is very relevant in that regard. For us lower down the scale from an output and budget perspective, our workflow maybe slower, and more laid back. The principle is still the same, practicing the printing, understanding or reading your negs effectively to interpret the many ways of printing each negative, and toning of each print, all come easier the more you do it.

 

[brian steinberger]

Well said Andrew...

 

[Chuck_P]

I think my message is about becoming a better printer, unfortunately it takes practice, and if purchasing paper is not possible then I don't have a reliable answer for you. Paper can be purchased on the internet in rolls and cut down for proofing purposes at a very reasonable price. My methods are aimed at printers who have a darkroom and actually make prints and are willing to purchase the materials

I am sorry if you think this is BS and it is obvious my comments are not aimed at you.
as I said just my 2cents

No animosity here, I'm just talking , and my previous post was a bit too strong. You have a lot of good things to say that folks can learn from, but I disagree with the notion you made.

Of course it takes practice, no argument, to do anything really well for most requires practice and a "stick to it" mentality, of which I have plenty of........but not always plenty of resources, like many here. Purchasing paper is possible, but you imply that to become a better printer, you must do so at all cost or find something else to do.

Although it may not have been directed at me specifically, I specifically, am in with a lot of folks that are of limited resources. I'm no spring chicken in this activity, I'm a pretty good printer if I say so myself even though I don't make a living at it (and could not make a living at it), but I did not become a better printer by ignoring the means by which I have to live----I became a better printer by making better negatives, it was an absolute direct result of doing so. So, IMHO, noone here has to take that approach to become a better printer. That's just my two cents I guess, and am probably overdrawn considering the OP.

 

[PVia]

I think that while making better negatives makes printing a bit easier, especially for those making quick & easy prints (I love it when my negs are perfect for those sessions where I'm making 5x7s proofs with minimal D&B, etc), the art of printing takes considerably more practice to not only hone the technical side but to develop the eye and aesthetic.

In darkroom printing, the ability to see a result only after a move or moves have been made slows the process considerably. So, in order to learn from each variable takes a certain amount of time and playing "what if", hence the usage of much material.

Bob's advice is true of almost any artistic endeavor whether drawing, music or photography and echoes the maxim that Malcolm Gladwell states in his Outliers book, that in order to become an expert in any field you must spend approxiamtely 10,000 hours practicing it.

 

[Mike1234]

I think the other thing Bob was getting across is that nothing teaches more than actually doing the printing. Repeatedly until you get it. While most cannot afford this practice, he does have a point. Especially from a business perspective like Elevator. Time is money, and being good at eeking out all that one can from a negative for a client, quickly, intuitively and nailing the print every time is what they are after. You are only as good as your last print, and staying in practice is very relevant in that regard. For us lower down the scale from an output and budget perspective, our workflow maybe slower, and more laid back. The principle is still the same, practicing the printing, understanding or reading your negs effectively to interpret the many ways of printing each negative, and toning of each print, all come easier the more you do it.

Then you'd better go digital or hybrid.

 

[jmal]

Then you'd better go digital or hybrid.

What? How in the world is hybrid or digital a cheaper or more logical path if one does not have the same resources as a large scale photo lab? Damn, the point, once again, is to spend a couple hundred dollars on paper and chemicals and lock the door. Try something different with each print. Spend time doing the work and improvements will result. There is no secret to good prints. It's the same as anything else. You have to devote the time and energy if you want to improve. I'm not a great printer, but I do know that when I spend a lot of time printing, I get much better. More time, better prints.

 

[Marek Warunkiewicz]

How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Same thing with printing.

 

[Marek Warunkiewicz]

Honestly, I have seen and done a number of crafts (I mean the word craft in the highest meaning if the word), glass blowing, ceramics, woodworking, and what always blows me away is how easy it seems when you watch someone who has spent 10,000 hours or more working. I've watched my friend Nancy Solway throw pots and it looks like the clay is rising a half-inch above where where her hands are, I've also watched Bob print for one day and it looked so damn easy. Try to duplicate it and it ain't so easy. It's the time you spend, as long as you are critical as well. To quote Bertrand Russell, "One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision". What I am learning from Bob is to let go of a print, throw it away, and just go for it. Try a bunch of stuff, it's only paper. If you can't afford 11x14 prints, print smaller, find a way, just go for it and have fun. That is one thing I learned from watching Bob print is that he seems to be working hard, focusing fiercely, but having fun and not looking back only looking forward. I guess that also comes with the 10,000 plus hours. A horrible day printing is better than an average day doing anything else, at least for me.

 

[brian steinberger]

A horrible day printing is better than an average day doing anything else, at least for me.

So true. And even on those horrible printing days you still learn.

 

[jglass]

I'd just like to say, to prevent beginners getting discourage: YOU CAN TAKE UP WET PRINTING AND GET BEAUTIFUL RESULTS VERY SOON WITH VERY LITTLE OUTLAY, in time and money.

Bob Carnie and you other great printers are talking about working towards mastering the craft and I'm sure you are right on.

But beginners should also be assured that there is an incredible amount of enjoyment and satisfaction -- and lovely prints even --even before you hit 100 hours. That's been my experience.

 

[stradibarrius]

I am a violin maker and make custom "handmade" violin for professional musicians. Several years ago, I sat down and calculated the number of man hours I had spent in the work shop learning my craft. Reading books studying violins made by Stradivari and Guarnari. Making saw dust so to speak. Some complete failures and some successes. At that time I calculated that I had spent more than 11,000 hours working, taking baby and giant steps forward. Making mistakes that became firewood...but in the end there is no substitute for putting the chisel to the wood.
So I agree that the only real way to truly learn what you are doing is to "do it", whatever "it" is. You will either find the journey, success and failure, enjoyable and continue to move forward or decide that you are satisfied with being where you are or maybe even that this journey is not for you.
Obviously there are some people that have more success during the learning process. They seem to have a "talent" for music, photography, painting etc. and find their calling.
Having said all of that, forums like APUG provide a virtual classroom so that the people with experience and proven results can become the professors for those of us who have yet to achieve the skill level necessary to find our own way. Your experience helps shorten the journey and keep us from wasting time and resources in a direction that is completely wrong. There is an old saying "where there is a will, there is a way" and if you want to learn you will find a way to move forward.
Unlimited time and money make make the journey faster but may not shorten the distance. For me and my violin making skills, I have not reached the destination and continue to move forward in my quest to make the next violin better than the last.
For all of us beginners, a single failure does not equal defeat, it is only another step in the learning journey.
For all of you "professors" be patient with you "students" and try to remember when you knowledge base was small and you asked the basic questions that beginners ask.

Your passion for the endeavor will determine the distance you are willing to travel down the path.

 

[tim k]

I am a violin maker and make custom "handmade" violin for professional musicians. Several years ago, I sat down and calculated the number of man hours I had spent in the work shop learning my craft. Reading books studying violins made by Stradivari and Guarnari. Making saw dust so to speak. Some complete failures and some successes. At that time I calculated that I had spent more than 11,000 hours working, taking baby and giant steps forward. Making mistakes that became firewood...but in the end there is no substitute for putting the chisel to the wood.
So I agree that the only real way to truly learn what you are doing is to "do it", whatever "it" is. You will either find the journey, success and failure, enjoyable and continue to move forward or decide that you are satisfied with being mediocre.
Obviously there are some people that have more success during the learning process. They seem to have a "talent" for music, photography, painting etc. and find their calling.
Having said all of that, forums like APUG provide a virtual classroom so that the people with experience and proven results can become the professors for those of us who have yet to achieve the skill level necessary to find our own way. Your experience helps shorten the journey and keep us from wasting time and resources in a direction that is completely wrong. There is an old saying "where there is a will, there is a way" and if you want to learn you will find a way to move forward.
Unlimited time and money make make the journey faster but may not shorten the distance. For me and my violin making skills, I have not reached the destination and continue to move forward in my quest to make the next violin better than the last.
For all of us beginners, a single failure does not equal defeat, it is only another step in the learning journey.
For all of you "professors" be patient with you "students" and try to remember when you knowledge base was small and you asked the basic questions that beginners ask.

Your passion for the endeavor will determine the distance you are willing to travel down the path.

Very well said.

 

[goldenimage]

I used to teach art, most of my students were older folks that wanted to take oil painting lessons, i enjoyed it very much. one of my students was very proud of her paintings and she showed them to a friend of hers who was an "accomplished artist" (whatever the hell that is) her friend told her that not everyone can paint, you are either an artist or you arn't, but she should continue taking the class because she seemed to enjoy it so much. that student never returned to my class, and her painting ended up in the trash can . I think that everyone is teachable, I read a quote one time that read "the greater the artist, the greater the doubt, perfect confidence is given to the less talented as a consolation prize."

 

[Bob Carnie]

Lith Tip

Ever notice how your first print of the day does not have the same tone and look as your better prints??

When you mix fresh lith chems, I always throw in the dev a lot of old paper exposed to light and let it sit and develop out in the tray for about 10-20 minutes.
Kind of ages or perks up your developer and your first prints get the look.

 

[Tom Stanworth]

Or add 'old brown' - seasoned lith dev.

Printing takes HUGE time and experience to be able to do a great job on pretty well any neg. Years ago i could print some negs great, but others frustrated me. Now I am a whole lot better, thanks to small improvements over years. Getting attuned to flashing and fogging help, and solving the mechanical niggles that can frustrate like reflections off easels, all help to build a more enjoyable experience.

I am currently shooting a reportage project and using a pro to do the printing due to time contraints when back in the UK. but I am still printing. Some of the prints exhibited will be mine, but others will not be. I have set the quality bar very high and just dont have the time bck home to be able to work to that standard in all cases. Those that I did not pull off too well, contribute to better experience, as do those I get to the standard I want. Still, I feel I am getting stronger on my printing with every failure and hard won 'great print'.

It might sound odd, but it took a lot of work to transition from landscapes to people prints. It requires a different visual appreciation and skill application IMO and after a couple of years working at it, I feel I am mostly there. alrthough some of the skills are 'technique' bases and can be taught, a lot is about your eye and that just takes time and experience. There is no short cut, only the 'learning bin.'

 

[Worker 11811]

I used to teach art, most of my students were older folks that wanted to take oil painting lessons, i enjoyed it very much. one of my students was very proud of her paintings and she showed them to a friend of hers who was an "accomplished artist" (whatever the hell that is) her friend told her that not everyone can paint, you are either an artist or you arn't, but she should continue taking the class because she seemed to enjoy it so much. that student never returned to my class, and her painting ended up in the trash can . I think that everyone is teachable, I read a quote one time that read "the greater the artist, the greater the doubt, perfect confidence is given to the less talented as a consolation prize."

Many years ago, I entered a couple of my photos in the county fair. They didn't win any prizes but that's not what disappointed me. The thing that upset me was the photo that won. It was an out of focus, badly exposed, flash photo of a cat sitting on a living room rug which was obviously taken with a disposable "Instamatic" camera!

There were other photos that I thought were better than mine. The way I figured, I could have taken honorable mention. There were at least three that were better than mine but none of those won any ribbons either!

No black and white photos won any ribbons. No photos that were simply dry mounted won any ribbons. (Frames were not required by the rules.) There was no theme requirement for the exhibition which would disqualify a photo because of the subject and, on the tag you have to affix to the back of your entries, there is a box where the judges make a check mark if you are DQ. They also have to write a reason for DQ-ing an entry.

It's bad form to complain at a competition so I just took my stuff and went home. I mentioned it to my family and none of them even understood what I was saying. They all gave me platitudes and told me I was a sore loser. (The top prize was $10 and a blue ribbon. - Even if I took the award I thought I deserved it would have been a gold star.)

After that, I put my camera away and I probably shot a roll of film with it in the last 20 years. It's only recently that I have regained interest in shooting photos again. Even now, it is highly unlikely that I would ever hang a photo on the wall ever again.

I never thought I would be another Ansel Adams. It might be nice but, in truth, I don't think I want to be.

I never intended to make money or win lots of awards. That's not why I like photography. I like photography because I think it's fun.
I got hollered at my my first photography teacher in high school because I took a penlight and drew squiggly lines on an 11" X 14" piece of photo paper and developed it. He shouted at me for wasting paper. I promptly spouted, "Photographer means 'One who paints with light.'" He just grumbled, "Don't waste paper again." as he walked away. The point is that I just like the process of making photographs and I'm not in it for fame or fortune.

The surest way to discourage any artist is to invalidate his work. I don't mean negative criticism. I'd rather have 100 people tell me that my photos are crap than to have one person tell me they are good. I mean lack of recognition of a work of art... lack of criticism, positive or negative... lack of understanding of the creative process... not giving the artist his due in making art for the sake of making art.

goldenimage;

That woman who dropped out of your class because her "artist" friend put her work down probably felt the same as I did when I saw the blue ribbon awarded to a crummy photo at the fair. It is that kind of invalidation that KILLED my will to make photos. I would have rather had somebody drive a stake through my heart! She probably got a stake driven though her heart too!

When I show a photo to anybody I expect them to say things like, "Your focus isn't sharp." or, "You use too much contrast." I can even understand it when people say, "Why do you greenhorns always use too much contrast?!" After that, I would, probably say something like, "Okay! Show me how it's done!"

If that "artist" who put down your student had just said something like, "You need to learn how to use color." or "You need to make better brush strokes." I bet she would have stayed in your class.

I don't care what the craft or art form: Violin making, glass blowing, painting or photography or anything else." The surest way to kill off an artist and, eventually, to kill off art in general is to invalidate the art.

 

[2F/2F]

Interesting about "spiking" your new batch of lith chemistry with a shot of old brown. I always do exactly the opposite. I use "old brown" as the base of each batch, instead of fresh water. I simply spike it with a shot of fresh chemistry when it seems to be pooping out. With a 2 L batch of solution, I add 100 mL of A and 100 mL of B to the tray, and swish it around a bit. I save 1.75 L of old brown at the end of the session, and chuck the rest. (I found a perfectly-sized 1.75 L OJ bottle for stowing the old brown.)