A&I: Sayonara to E6 Processing Next Month!

[Bob Carnie]

A few posts up seems to clarify a bit. The North American market took hold of digital much faster than Europe. this may be the simple reason for some of the differences of opinions.

What I can tell you from a lab perspective is that when volume of film running through a Refrema reduces the chances/probability of running a high quality E6 line with pride is lessened. The owners of these quality labs place quality first and foremost.
I am not talking about roller transport here but a full on Refrema E6 process , which is a hungry monster.

In Toronto market, we have a group of Minilab operations called Blacks Camera, historically they used Fuji paper exclusively for RA4, today Blacks has gone completely dry, inkjet prints rather than wet RA4.... I already have seen a increase in my Fuji Paper costs, and quite possibly more price increases . How long will the market pay extra for products.... Well I naively ran a Cibachrome Lab until a short 4 years ago, I loved the process and the prints, but when the price per print was double the market decided flex prints, or Inkjets were good enough..... we threw the machine in a bin regrettably as I have a business to run .

What is in the future... I cannot say , if a small outfit decides to coat transparencey film, and provide the chemicals then yes,,, any takers.
Same goes for Black and White paper, In my heart of hearts I still think a small crazy individual will buy one of Kodaks small coaters, hire a few of the remaining skilled workers and start coating Ectalure that works in an enlarger and also on my Lambda digital exposing unit... I hear there is that person, her name is Georgina Eastman and is now just finishing her 2nd year at RIT. Go Georgina Go

I do not think Kodak and Fuji will continue on producing E6 film and chemicals , sorry but that is my 2 cents.
I also think that if the digital dry print or inkjet wave continues we will within 10 years lose RA4 produced by Kodak and Fuji. now thats 3 cents.

I cannot predict what any small groups or interests will do to continue the products that are being discussed on this thread, but I think its pretty predictable what the big guys will do.... I really , really hope I am wrong.

I am hedging my Black and White and Colour printing future by learning Carbon Monochrome and Tri Colour, Gum, Pt Pd and will stock pile Ilford Warmtone when the Harmon boys decide to call it quits.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Bob,

There was a lab over here (in Norfolk) that ran an E6 Refrema until a few years ago; I got the impression that demand was rather sporadic which meant the machine wasn't viable to keep running everyday.

At the moment we have heard no exit plans from Harman so I think that is a bit hasty...

Tom

 

[Bob Carnie]

Tom

Its all about demand with a Refema.

Though I was never a boy scout I like their motto about being prepared.
Bob

Bob,

There was a lab over here (in Norfolk) that ran an E6 Refrema until a few years ago; I got the impression that demand was rather sporadic which meant the machine wasn't viable to keep running everyday.

At the moment we have heard no exit plans from Harman so I think that is a bit hasty...

Tom

 

[bishy]

Bob,may i please ask if it's possible a Refrema line can be run only for a couple days a week?,or does there need to be a daily run through of film?

Thank you.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I think this would be a very costly consideration for an owner of such a machine, these beasts hold a lot of chemicals.
I am sure this is happening, but the great shops pretty much decide its not worth the effort.

Bob,may i please ask if it's possible a Refrema line can be run only for a couple days a week?,or does there need to be a daily run through of film?

Thank you.

 

[bishy]

I think this would be a very costly consideration for an owner of such a machine, these beasts hold a lot of chemicals.
I am sure this is happening, but the great shops pretty much decide its not worth the effort.

Thank you for the info,Bob.

 

[Henning Serger]

Hello Bob,

Henning

From a practical standpoint, Running a E6 lab at standards of high quality is a daunting task, I know as I ran a E6 lab with all its significant issues.
Running Control and keeping plots in tune require massive volumes.. have you ever seen a functioning E 6 machine??

yes.

Commercial shooters were the mainstay, not part time shooters,

Slide film has been relatively popular here in Europe also with amateurs. The slide film market in Europe has been significantly bigger than the BW film market since the early seventies. Last year for example the number of slide films sold in Germany was double the number of BW film (due to official GfK data).
It has always been possible to get slide film even in drug store chains here.

Audiovision slide shows has been very popular here among advanced amateurs. And lots of professionals earned their money with them. Some are still doing it (e.g. Rosing, Weyer to name two of the best).
There was a print-magazine here especially for that: slide film and projection/Audiovision. That magazine is still existent (now under the name "fotoforum"), now reporting about both digital and analog photography, and still featering slide film and projection. It's seldom now, but they still do.
Recently they reported about all new made slide projectors and the revolutionary new Diaspeed slide mounts for example.

The worldwide slide film market get significant support now by the Lomography and low-fidelity movement. Depending on the country you consider, the growth rates differ from 30 - 100% p.a.. LSI sold 500,000 new cameras last year. Universal electronics, the manufacturer of the Holga, has sold more than 1,1 million of these cameras so far.
At their booth at Photokina Freestyle made the statetment that they sell ten thousands of Holgas each year. There is a reason why they call themselves the "Holga Headquarter" and invest in this business.
Both companies (LSI and UI) are expanding their camera portfolio, in the meanwhile dozens of different models are offered. Eyery year new models are introduced.
About 15 million films are exposed this year worldwide by lomographers.
These photographers like slide film, especially for cross processing. It is extremely popular. That is the reason why LSI introduced three own slide films recently.

The European photo market has significantly differences compared to the North American market. Slide film is one, much more popular in Europe (and in Japan as well; in Tokyo you can still get E6 development over night).
Another example for the difference: Popularity of single use cameras. In 2010 about 36 millions were sold in the US, but only 0,5 million in Germany.
These cameras have never had the same popularity here. In the "golden days" of film about 160 millions were sold in the US p.a., but only 5 millions here.
Nevertheless, despite the relative less popularity, you can buy single use cameras here in every photo shop and every drug store.
The whole infrastructure for film photography is still excellent here.

You can not transfer the market situation in North America 1:1 to Europe, Japan or China. Different markets with different structures.

I do not have a handle on the European market, whether film is still used in the big houses for capture, if so then there is a reason to keep the E6 labs open, but the moment the digital wave sweeps across Europe I can assure you the E6 labs will drop like fly's.

Bob, the "moment the digital wave sweeps across Europe" is long gone. It was a decade ago here the digital revolution took place. Some countries in Europe adopted digital technology even faster than the US (the Netherlands e.g.).
Nevertheless for example we have still 35 E6 labs here in Germany, and the number has been stable for the last two years.
That are the simple facts.

Maybe we will have less labs in the future, nobody knows. So what? The smaller, inefficient labs will close, and / or the labs with mediocre service. The quality labs with excellent service will stay. And the labs who do marketing for film and their services. A standard process in competition.

Toronto had 5 functioning pro level E6 labs not a short 15 years ago, today only one Toronto Image Works.

I am living in a city with only 500,000 people, compared to Toronto quite small. We have two E6 labs here.
I grew up in a city with only 75,000 inhabitants. There has never been a E6 lab.
I grew up with mail order processing.
And generations of photographers here have only used mail order processing, Kodachrome and Agfachrome.
The minority of European slide film shooters used local labs. The majority used mail order processing.
As I've said in my first post here, mail order processing here is no problem at all. Most labs offer that service, and some are extremely fast: They develop the film the same day it comes in, and send it the same day back to you. Only two days later you have your film back in excellent quality.

Color photography, slide and CN, became popular without the existence of many local labs,without the existence of minilabs or 1 hour processing. It was the drug store chain system, bigger labs and mail order processing which was dominant in this era. And it was suitable to make color photography a mass medium.

Therefore I disagree on those who claim the 'total demise of film' because of less local labs or minilabs. If that would be right, film would have never got the popularity it indeed has got.

The same principle for Cibachrome, the last guy standing proudly pounded his chest, never in Austrailia, well from what I have heard the Ciba labs even there are no more.

No problem to get Ilfochrome done here by a professional lab.

Why would Kodak stop with Kodachrome if there was demand,,, simply there was not enough demand.
Bob

Yes, no demand for Kodachrome. Because E6 films has been much better for a longer time. I stopped using Kodachrome about twenty years ago because of the better E6 alternatives.
Well, and the latest E6 films like E100G, Provia 100F, Astia 100F, Provia 400X etc., they are so much better than Kodachrome that I don't miss Kodachrome at all. And by far the most slide film shooters I know think about that the same way. They replaced Kodachrome by E6 films as well long ago.

I don't have a guarantee that slide film will be existant in ten years. But as explained in my first and this post, there are some hints that slide film has a chance to stay.

I am very sceptical concerning this "doom and gloom" praying because I hear all that for more than 30 years now:
In the early seventies with the vast increasing popularity of color film the "experts" said BW film will die.
1981 the first still video camera was introduced: The "experts" said that until 1990 film will be dead.
Since almost 30 years now I hear from the same people that Super8 is dead. But if I look at the number of Super8 films available today, I see there are even more different types available now than in the Super8 boom days!
The user base of slide film shooters has always been much bigger than the number of Super8 users.
If Super 8 is able to survive, than there is really a good chance for slide film to survive.
At Photokina 2002 the same "experts" said that film will be too much expensive to buy during the next five years, and in 2010 there will be no photo film available anymore.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Hello Henning! Well said!
I wish I could easily find those new diaspeed glassless mounts here in France.

Hello Lionel,

you don't need a distributor in France. Just send them an email info@diaspeed.de , tell them what you need and they will send it to you.
If you don't speak German, just send them the email in English.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning Serger "BW slides with their unique tonality"
What is a BW Slide and how do you make it? is it cross processed or ? I have not seen a B&W slide film since Agfa Scala. Thanks.

Well, you have BW slide films which are designed for reversal processing and have their own dedicated process. Examples are Agfa Scala 200X (still available in Germany by some distributors) with the dedicated Scala process, and Foma R100 with the Foma reversal kit.
But both films can be developed in other BW reversal processes as well.

There are some professional labs with their own special process: For example dr5, Klaus Wehner, agenzialuce.

And there are a lot of different recipes for BW reversal development for 'do it yourselve' at home. For example Ilford has published one on their website.

In general lots of 'normal' BW films can be reversal developed to BW slides. With some it works better, some types are looking not so good.
With BW films with clear base you get often the best overall brillance and the best highlight rendition, therefore lots of BW slide shooters prefer these films for BW slides.

Cross processing: Yes, there is one film which can be cross-processed: Ilford XP2 Super. If you develop it in E6 instead of C-41, you get BW slides, but mostly with a greenish tint. Exposing at ISO 50 and push of one stop to get higher contrast is recommended by most photographers who use this film this way.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Bob Carnie]

Well Henning , can't argue with your post, it seems E6 film and processing is alive and well in Europe, same goes for Cibachrome, if you could send me the name of the lab I would be interested, as I get international calls or emails each month asking if I still process Cibachrome via the Lambda and I would love to be able to send them somewhere.
Mail order is not as popular here in Ontario Canada, in most small centers historically there is a vendor who can process local film, usually attached to the main camera store.
The high quality E6 labs using the big Refrema's have all gone with a few exceptions in each major city, and this trend is prevalent in North America, and I do not see this changing, as well I doubt lomo or holga cameras are going to make an explosion of transparency film to be processed.
Most camera clubs that I am aware of have gone to digital projectors.

regards

Bob

 

[Henning Serger]

Henning, can you give a few names of some BW slide labs in Germany - I would love to try a few rolls.

Well, of course.
First we have the Scala labs which are running the original Scala process:

www.photostudio13.de

That is the lab I am using for lots of my BW slides. Excellent quality, excellent service, extremely fast turnaround time (two days).
They develop the following films:
Agfa Scala 200X
Foma R100 (with a Dmax of about 3,70; only Klaus Wehner can do this a bit better)
Rollei Retro 80S (expose at ISO 50 - 64)
Rollei Superpan 200 (expose at ISO 125 - 160)
Rollei Retro 400S (expose at ISO 125 - 160)
Rollei IR (expose at ISO 125 - 160)
Rollei Retro 100 Tonal (they develop this film, but they don't recommend it because of it's relative low Dmax)
Agfa Copex Rapid (highest resolving and sharpest BW slide film); recommended exposure: ISO 50 - 64 for 35mm film, and ISO 64 - 80 for 120 format film.

Other Scala labs are:

www.bildmanufaktur-muenchen.com
www.phototechnik-berlin.de
www.schlomsundschmitz.de

And then there is Klaus Wehner, who has designed his own, very sophisticated process (about 20 steps):
www.schwarzweiss-dia.de

He is currently developing Agfa Scala 200X, Foma R100, Rollei Retro 80S (exposed at ISO 50) and Superpan 200 (exposed at ISO160).
The quality is outstanding and significantly surpassing the Scala process with a much higher Dmax. So far the best quality I've got with Scala and Retro 80S, surpassing other labs (incl. dr5).
But the turnaround times are quite long, you need patience.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Henning Serger]

Well Henning , can't argue with your post, it seems E6 film and processing is alive and well in Europe, same goes for Cibachrome, if you could send me the name of the lab I would be interested,

regards

Bob

Hello Bob,

no problem: www.photostudio13.de
I have been very satiesfied with their Ilfochrome work.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[bishy]

Hello Bob,

There is a gentlemen in England,whom still produces Ilfochrome work.

www.owenboyd.co.uk

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Back to the top, Ken. What convinced A&I to close its E6 line?

Oh dear...



Your "sock puppets" notwithstanding, are you even paying attention to this discussion?

Ken

 

[Bob Carnie]

Thanks Henning for the link - they use the Lambda for Ciba as I did, and they also seem to offer lambda fibres as our lab currently does.

Hello Bob,

no problem: www.photostudio13.de
I have been very satiesfied with their Ilfochrome work.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Lionel1972]

Hello Lionel,

you don't need a distributor in France. Just send them an email info@diaspeed.de , tell them what you need and they will send it to you.
If you don't speak German, just send them the email in English.

Best regards,
Henning

Thank you very much Henning! I will definitively check them out!

Best,

Lionel.