A&I: Sayonara to E6 Processing Next Month!

[wblynch]

Fromex in Long Beach does a beautiful job on E6. Give them a try. They have done all my slides.

 

[CGW]

Why would you forgo send out slide service - are you that impatient, and against saving a few $$$? Well, I can help you with the first item - develop e-6 yourself at home - its fast and super easy. Fun too, but the bad news is that you will pay less per roll to home develop than at your local lab.
Seriously, you better start getting your thinking right, as C-41 isn't that far behind e-6, maybe a year or two. Better start accepting the idea of send out service, or DIY, that is the not too distant future. Or will you take the same attitude and toss C-41 for digital when your local pro lab no longer does film?

My thinking is just fine, thanks. There will be a tipping point. The real question is: what goes first? E6 materials or E6 processing? E6 materials are a shadow of what they were 5 years ago. Kodak recently killed EliteChrome 100--a once-popular consumer film. Why? E6 labs have been steadily folding for the last 5 years. Why?

I'm happily set for the time being. However, I'm not topping up my 120 slide film stock. I'm not going to be standing in line for E6 service at Dwayne's like the Kodachrome crew last year. If that comes to pass, the only E6 materials around will be stuck to a turkey in your freezer, not on store shelves.

I don't see denial as a strategy.

 

[lxdude]

I don't see "I quit" as a strategy, either.

 

[CGW]

I don't see "I quit" as a strategy, either.

Still shootin', dude. But don't tell me E6 materials and processing aren't endangered. That's denial.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I happen to agree, all signs point to the demise of Transparency Film,
My strategy would be to purchase a skid load of chemistry's and enough film and process at home/work .
I just do not happen to like the gamut of E6 , I much prefer C41 and when the time comes will buy in bulk and jobo process C41 exactly the same way we do now. Same goes for Black White film.

Still shootin', dude. But don't tell me E6 materials and processing aren't endangered. That's denial.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Bob,

The Jobo(s) is / are still going then? I need to make my machine (ATL-2300) operational again and fix the 'air diffuser faulty' error, which I've done before.

Tom

 

[Bob Carnie]

Tom all my ATL 2300's are gone, I am on my last Jobo machine, Richard Idle here on APUG and I have designed a semi automatic device to use all the
Tanks and Reels I have invested in, we will start production on the first machine in the new year as my current Alt 3 is probably on its last legs.
It won't be cheap but is a mixture of hand pouring, and dumping but with the luxury of a countown timer and rollers modified to accept the jobo tanks of
all sizes.


Bob

Bob,

The Jobo(s) is / are still going then? I need to make my machine (ATL-2300) operational again and fix the 'air diffuser faulty' error, which I've done before.

Tom

 

[Henning Serger]

I happen to agree, all signs point to the demise of Transparency Film,

Hello Bob,

there are some significant signs that there is a chance for transparency film to stay ( I was involved in photomarket research in the past professionally therefore know the numbers).
First is the huge and increasing demand from the low-fidelity movement (Holga, Lomography, Superheadz). One example: Just have a look at the 'lomohomes' of the Lomography website where the lomographers present their pictures (by the way: The Lomography website is by far the biggest online community for analogue photography with more than double number of members than apug; and it is rapidly increasing).
If you look at the picture descriptions, you will see that 30 - 40% of all pictures are shot with slide film (and lots of them cross-processed). If you look at other Lomo forums (there are several worldwide; Singapore for example has one with more than 7000 members) in some of them even more than 50% of all presented pictures are shot on slide film.
That is the reason why LSI (Lomographic Society International) has introduced three slide films under their own brand during the last three years.
Their new LomoKino camera with LomoKinoScope will give their slide film sells certainly a further push (this camera was already sold out only one day after introduction).

Then there is a small trend in the beginning here in Europe that photographers realize the unique quality of slide projection. If you compare slide projection side by side with the so-called "high-end" Beamers (which cost 7000 - 10000€; the price of a good used car) then you immediately see the much superior quality of the slides: Much better colors (no limitited color space), much better brillance, higher contrast range and especially much much better detail rendition and resolution with slides (here the beamers can't compete at all because of their extremely low resolution of only max. 2 Megapixels horizontally and 1,2 MP vertically).

Projection is the field where film has by far the biggest technological advantage and superior quality compared to digital.
And the price-performance ratio of slide projection is so much better than beamers because of the low prices of excellent slide projectors and the extremely high prices of beamers.
And an increasing number of photographers is realising that.

And here more photograpers are discovering the joys of slides by BW slides with their unique tonality. Even dark room addicts realize that BW slides and projection can add a unique component to their work. Not replacing, no, not at all, but another form of expression with a different character. An additional benefit.
With slide projection it is easy and very cheap to have a big, brillant and impressive image in 1m x 1,5m or 2m x 3m. Try that in your darkroom......
And some of these photographers discover color slides by BW slides.
Here in Germany some of the BW slide labs have extended their film range, offering further films.

And at least here we see that a growing number of photographers is realising the quality limitations of scanning. Especially with the most widespread 4000 ppi scanners you have a significant quality loss, loosing much resolution and enhancing grain by scanner noise.
With projection with a good projection lens (or a good slide loupe) you don't have these problems. We have tested several projection lenses and the quality loss with them is minimal. We've got almost the same resolution values on screen with projection as we've evaluated under the microscope.
The quality level you achieve in projection with excellent lenses is absolutely outstanding!
And much much better than scanners, even the best drum scanners that we've tested in comparison (X5 and ICG 370) had a much more significant quality loss.

Slides and slide projection has always been much more popular in some European countries (especially Germany, Austria, Suisse) than in the U.S for example. One reason why we still have four manufacturers of slide projectors, and some of slide mounts, lighttables and excellent slide loups (Schneider-Kreuznach and Rodenstock).
And some are successfully working on innovations, like Diaspeed with their revolutionary and awesome new glasless slide mounts which give you perfect sharpness from edge to edge in projection. No "plopp" anymore, and perfectly working with all films. You get all the advantages of glass-mounts, but without their disadvantages.
And you get all the advantages of glassless mounts, but without their disadvantages. This new clever system is absolutely amazing!
Braun introduced a new slide projector this year as well.

When I show my slides, color and BW, projected to other younger photographers who so far never have enjoyed such high level of presentation quality (most of them only used to computer monitors or small prints), then there is always this "wow, how impressive, never seen such brillance before". And then they are hooked.

Slide film, both color and BW, is a unique medium with it's own special charme. It cannot be replaced by other photographic mediums. I only need to expose and develop it, and then I have a finished picture of outstanding quality. I only need light to enjoy it, nothing more.
I am convinced that this unique medium is worth to be kept alive. The photography world would be much poorer without transparency film.
Therefore let's continue shooting it and encouraging others to enjoy it as well.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Lionel1972]

Hello Henning! Well said!
I wish I could easily find those new diaspeed glassless mounts here in France. I recently acquired an Hektor Leica projection lens for my old Rollei projector which improved the quality of my projections quite a lot already, I wonder if I would get better results with those new diaspeed mounts. I'm glad to know that at least in Germany transparency film is still appreciated.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Henning

From a practical standpoint, Running a E6 lab at standards of high quality is a daunting task, I know as I ran a E6 lab with all its significant issues.
Running Control and keeping plots in tune require massive volumes.. have you ever seen a functioning E 6 machine??

Commercial shooters were the mainstay, not part time shooters, Digital capture has completely taken over the North American market for commercial work and therefore lack of volume for the machines and the end result all the top labs with the best technicians move on to other ways of out putting.

I do not have a handle on the European market, whether film is still used in the big houses for capture, if so then there is a reason to keep the E6 labs open, but the moment the digital wave sweeps across Europe I can assure you the E6 labs will drop like fly's.
Toronto had 5 functioning pro level E6 labs not a short 15 years ago, today only one Toronto Image Works.
Film is not being shot here, all the commercial shooters are working with phase backs, and this trend is not reversing.

The same principle for Cibachrome, the last guy standing proudly pounded his chest, never in Austrailia, well from what I have heard the Ciba labs even there are no more.
Why would Kodak stop with Kodachrome if there was demand,,, simply there was not enough demand.

Bob

 

[CGW]

there are some significant signs that there is a chance for transparency film to stay ( I was involved in photomarket research in the past professionally therefore know the numbers).
First is the huge and increasing demand from the low-fidelity movement (Holga, Lomography, Superheadz). One example: Just have a look at the 'lomohomes' of the Lomography website where the lomographers present their pictures (by the way: The Lomography website is by far the biggest online community for analogue photography with more than double number of members than apug; and it is rapidly increasing).
If you look at the picture descriptions, you will see that 30 - 40% of all pictures are shot with slide film (and lots of them cross-processed). If you look at other Lomo forums (there are several worldwide; Singapore for example has one with more than 7000 members) in some of them even more than 50% of all presented pictures are shot on slide film.
That is the reason why LSI (Lomographic Society International) has introduced three slide films under their own brand during the last three years.
Their new LomoKino camera with LomoKinoScope will give their slide film sells certainly a further push (this camera was already sold out only one day after introduction.







Henning, for someone involved--past or present--in market research, you're very casual about quantifying and/or documenting anything stated above. Doubt the LSI "makes" its slide films--suspect Fuji does, though. Can you quantify "huge and increasing demand" for lomography cameras that comes close to film camera sales over even the past decade? For the huge global professional photographic market, E6 materials are no longer important; indeed, as Bob--who would certainly know--said, digital backs and DSLRs are what pros use predominantly now. I doubt amateur demand could ever come close to recovering more than a small fraction of the former pro demand for E6 materials and processing. That's what kept the labs open for the rest of us.

 

[bluejeh]

A&I: Sayonara to E6 processing

Henning Serger "BW slides with their unique tonality"
What is a BW Slide and how do you make it? is it cross processed or ? I have not seen a B&W slide film since Agfa Scala. Thanks.

 

[CGW]

Henning Serger "BW slides with their unique tonality"
What is a BW Slide and how do you make it? is it cross processed or ? I have not seen a B&W slide film since Agfa Scala. Thanks.

God, I still miss Scala. A 6x6 or 6x7 Scala shot shown with a Mamiya Pro Cabin or Kindermann projector is jaw-dropping.

For commercial b&w slide service, this is the place. Not cheap but nice work when you need it:

http://www.dr5.com/

 

[pukalo]

Henning, you are exactly right. Slide film is fantastic!!! Besides the fact that slides are drop dead beautiful pieces of art in and of themselves, and that they also scan sharper, with better colors, less grain and more detail than negative film, they are incredible for projection also. You get it all in one package - beautiful digital images for computer viewing and printing, based on a hard copy image storage medium that serves as both a work of art in and of itself, and can be enjoyed via projection. Negative film is great too, I am not knocking it. In fact today I chose to use some Portra 160 first over some Astia 100f taking pics of my kids having fun outside on a brightly overcast day today. Neg is great, especially for portraits, but it in no way can be a complete replacement for slide film for those who love slide film. So, as Henning says, lets encourage people to give it a try and see for themselves. Keep it, and film in general, alive as long as we can.

Henning, can you give a few names of some BW slide labs in Germany - I would love to try a few rolls.

CGW - you remind me of the digital shooters who hate film, and jump in, to flame film on PNet forums. But in this case, you seem to have a grudge against slide film. whats the deal? No one is saying slide is here forever. It, like C41, and film in general is threatened with extinction. Slide, more endangered here than in Europe. When the movie industry goes all digital, look out, both e6 and C41 may come toppling down as the infrastructure to support film and film chemical mass production is threatened. But, lets enjoy what we have now. This infrastructure still supports slide film, and as long as movie film is being made, and there is a need for movie prints (essentially, giant developed slide film rolls) in developing regions and domestic theaters that have not shelled out the big $$$ for digital projectors, and there is still an active consumer photographer shooting base, slide film will be made. The linchpin is, and will be, the movie industry. As for an active still photographer base, perhaps you have never been to Europe. Slide film has a vastly greater following in Europe. always has. I was surprised when I visited Germany less than 10 years ago, that slide film could even be found in large retail department stores similar to "kohls" or "Sears, or "JC Penny" in the US. So I am not surprised by what Henning says. Ya, maybe the active shooting base is 1/10 of what it was 10 years ago, but I bet it is still a very large base in absolute numbers. I suspect this is why in Britain and Germany you can still buy Tetenal 5L E-6 home developing kits, and why Fuji Europe has now introduced the "Chrome 6" full 6 bath 5 Liter kit to replace Kodaks now discontinued E6 kit. Europe still has the market.
And no one is talking about strategies either. a strategy for, or against, what? Shoot what you enjoy,and be happy, no need to knock slide film.

 

[CGW]

Sorry, pukalo, but you and Henning seem to think there are different laws of gravity for apples and oranges. Show us some numbers. It's all about global demand.

 

[Hatchetman]

Sorry, pukalo, but you and Henning seem to think there are different laws of gravity for apples and oranges. Show us some numbers. It's all about global demand.

So what's the break-even unit volume for Fuji's slide film? Where are they at now? What's the five year trend? Not generalities, I want numbers.

 

[CGW]

So what's the break-even unit volume for Fuji's slide film? Where are they at now? What's the five year trend? Not generalities, I want numbers.

Kodak's down to 3 transparency films with Elitechrome 100 just cut. Who discontinues merch that's selling?

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Kodak's down to 3 transparency films with Elitechrome 100 just cut. Who discontinues merch that's selling?

Companies that for strategic reasons feel the need to abandon one product line - or technology - in favor of another. For them, it's not about where a legacy product is today. It's about how quickly they can get to where they think they need to be tomorrow.

In these sorts of cases it doesn't really matter how much "merch" someone is selling. The products in question are just getting in the way.

Maybe this helps explain Mr. Serger's empirical data which seemingly differs so drastically from yours? I know it's difficult for some in North America to accept, but the world is much bigger than just Kodak. Especially over the last five years, or so...

Ken

 

[wblynch]

There was a character in Winnie-The-Poo named Eeyore...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eeyore

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

There was a character in Winnie-The-Poo named Eeyore...

"He has a poor opinion of most of the other animals in the Forest, describing them as having 'No brain at all, some of them', 'only grey fluff that's blown into their heads by mistake.' " -- from The House at Pooh Corner

Ken

 

[CGW]

Maybe this helps explain Mr. Serger's empirical data which seemingly differs so drastically from yours?

Serger didn't present any data, just anecdotal gush. Maybe sock puppets might help, Ken. Less slide film, fewer labs. No slide film, no labs. I know the holidays are coming but why all the magical thinking? Just keep an eye on the box score: Kodak 3, Fuji 5. Any guesses on 2012's score?

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Maybe sock puppets might help, Ken. Less slide film, fewer labs. No slide film, no labs.

Sock puppets! What a great idea! Watch very, very closely now...

"Less slide film, fewer labs." (This is now...)

"No slide film, no labs." (This is NOT now...)​

Did you see my fingers moving??

Any guesses on 2012's score?

Nope. Why not?

Because I - and you - would be fools to do so.

Why?

Because B&W film, after its precipitous drop off the consumer cliff, was predicted only a few short years ago to have already been extinct by now. Same for instant film, which by any rational argument should have been the first to permanently die.

Neither will ever again be the dominent form of image creation. But then neither needs to be to keep from going extinct. All they require is a critical mass - that number being far less than every photographer on the planet. And both are reportedly growing again - albeit modestly.

Hell, even Mr. Perez thought that by now Kodak would be a raging digital success and all film technology would have been relegated to the dustbin of technology history. And mind you, he's a bit more of an insider than either one of us. Let's see now... just exactly how well did his guesses pan out??

We all know things could go either way. That's the difference between us.

You do remember what Mr. Gump said about chocolates, right?

I know you do...

:w00t:

Ken

 

[Rudeofus]

Serger didn't present any data, just anecdotal gush.

It may be anecdotal gush, but it's anecdotes from a region you don't know much about and the main problem you seem to have with it is that it doesn't fit into your already made up opinion. Henning did list number of labs in Germany by the way. For whatever reason North America seems to have switched to digital much faster and much more thoroughly than Europe and Japan.

Just keep an eye on the box score: Kodak 3, Fuji 5. Any guesses on 2012's score?

I can predict that the number will go down because there are some products which are too similar to coexist: Kodak Elitechrome will go away altogether because it is consumer film and only offered in 135 format, and it eats into E100 sales numbers because of its low cost. If Kodak sells only half in E100 of what they sell in Elitechrome, they still increase their profit. Fuji will likely rearrange their redundant Velvia offerings - no need to have 3 of them around, again cannibalizing each others market. None of these changes will affect my shooting. Note that I sit nowhere near a credible source for all this, and the discontinuation of Fuji Astia does not fit at all into my list of predictions.

The main problem though seems to be that you seem to like E6, you see a lab near you go away and instead of working around this problem (people have suggested mail in or home processing) you try to talk this into a global problem for everyone. E6 is not a main stream product (and never was for consumers) and we may have to struggle a little bit to get access to materials and processing, but that's certainly not the end of it.

 

[CGW]

It's all about demand for E6 materials and processing. Why deny it? Ask Bob Carnie here about the economics and everyday PITA demands of running a tight E6 line.

 

[CGW]

Sock puppets! What a great idea! Watch very, very closely now...

"Less slide film, fewer labs." (This is now...)

"No slide film, no labs." (This is NOT now...)​

Did you see my fingers moving??



Nope. Why not?

Because I - and you - would be fools to do so.

Why?

Because B&W film, after its precipitous drop off the consumer cliff, was predicted only a few short years ago to have already been extinct by now. Same for instant film, which by any rational argument should have been the first to permanently die.

Neither will ever again be the dominent form of image creation. But then neither needs to be to keep from going extinct. All they require is a critical mass - that number being far less than every photographer on the planet. And both are reportedly growing again - albeit modestly.

Hell, even Mr. Perez thought that by now Kodak would be a raging digital success and all film technology would have been relegated to the dustbin of technology history. And mind you, he's a bit more of an insider than either one of us. Let's see now... just exactly how well did his guesses pan out??

We all know things could go either way. That's the difference between us.

You do remember what Mr. Gump said about chocolates, right?

I know you do...

:w00t:

Ken

Back to the top, Ken. What convinced A&I to close its E6 line?