A&I: Sayonara to E6 Processing Next Month!

[CGW]

My sentiments exactly. As I said, "indicitive of a different set of problems, I think."

Ken

Like what? Not agreeing with you? I have great local E6 processing but won't go chasing it all over N. America when it vanishes here. I'll buy and shoot transparency materials as long as it doesn't involve heroic processing measures. Too many other capture media at hand.

Try reading a little closer.

 

[bishy]

I managed Colourgenics in the late 80's, Colourgenics and Steichanlab were the two go to labs in Toronto GTA for E6 .There were many other options but these two labs were well above the cut of others. Both these labs stopped E6 due to lack of volume plan and simple, Controlling a high end E6 plot is not for the faint of heart, minimum 8 control strips per day, while I was there we started at 6 am and ran till midnight, Shin Sugino , Westside , and others would book time and run through the night.
You can not imagine the volumes of film clips and runs that would go on. Sadly The Refrema's require film to keep clean process control,, The major players of this service are dropping it and leaving to one or two per City to hang on as long as there is people wanting to use slide or transparancies in their cameras.
In Toronto I would only use Toronto Image Works for E6, otherwise ship to New York to a refrema that is busy, not slow.

A local lab uses a Refrema dip and dunk processor,there running between four to five hundred rolls of film through every week. Do you think it's possible they can keep clean process control?

Thank you

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Tell me if I'm wrong, but are the reasons for shooting transparency film are usually...
1. Project it
2. Used in commercial work in the old days because art directors like see a positive.

Transparency film has always been a challenge to shoot because of it's limited exposure latitude. Since most commercial shoots I imagine are done digitally and people rarely project slides anymore due to computers and data projectors, why not just let the process and the film die? I know I'm going to get some heat for this. BTW, there's nothing more beautiful than looking at an 8x10 chrome on a light box.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Is it a large or a small Refrema? Are they running multiple control strips? Is the operator experienced in quality control issues?
5 hundred rolls equals around 100 rolls a day which from my background not very much but then again it all depends upon the above issues.
I am sure under this amount and the quality control can be hard to manage.

A local lab uses a Refrema dip and dunk processor,there running between four to five hundred rolls of film through every week. Do you think it's possible they can keep clean process control?

Thank you

 

[Bob Carnie]

Joe Cornish used trans up until a year or so ago, like a lot of other photographers they live and die with this material and believe the colour gamut in the right lighting situation is unparalleled.
I have clients that only shoot trans in studio with any source of light but always a controlled lighting setup.
Personally I prefer colour negative film over transparency but for still life with soft light its hard to beat a good trans.
Yes two of the reasons you listed are correct, I would add the colour gamut and archival attributes of some trans material is quite good. Also
in the day colour separators liked transparency as there was an immediate colour reference .
I do imagine that this product E6 film has the greatest chance of becoming extinct. There will always people able to process it so if you like it stock up, and correction filter as it ages.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but are the reasons for shooting transparency film are usually...
1. Project it
2. Used in commercial work in the old days because art directors like see a positive.

Transparency film has always been a challenge to shoot because of it's limited exposure latitude. Since most commercial shoots I imagine are done digitally and people rarely project slides anymore due to computers and data projectors, why not just let the process and the film die? I know I'm going to get some heat for this. BTW, there's nothing more beautiful than looking at an 8x10 chrome on a light box.

 

[silentworld]

I thought you just said another and the most important reason to shoot transparency film youself, " there's nothing more beautiful than looking at an 8x10 chrome on a light box" . We could replace 8X10 with other film size (at least MF size) and I think the statement would work as well.

I just showed a group of friends yesterday some MF slides on a light table with a good loupe and they were all amazed at how beautiful and 3-D looking the images are. These are people who started with digital and never get a chance to experience the beauty of the slides and I hope some of them will give it a try themselves. Hopefully the industry will find a good way to keep E-6 viable as a niche art medium.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but are the reasons for shooting transparency film are usually...
1. Project it
2. Used in commercial work in the old days because art directors like see a positive.

Transparency film has always been a challenge to shoot because of it's limited exposure latitude. Since most commercial shoots I imagine are done digitally and people rarely project slides anymore due to computers and data projectors, why not just let the process and the film die? I know I'm going to get some heat for this. BTW, there's nothing more beautiful than looking at an 8x10 chrome on a light box.

 

[CGW]

I thought you just said another and the most important reason to shoot transparency film youself, " there's nothing more beautiful than looking at an 8x10 chrome on a light box" . We could replace 8X10 with other film size (at least MF size) and I think the statement would work as well.

I just showed a group of friends yesterday some MF slides on a light table with a good loupe and they were all amazed at how beautiful and 3-D looking the images are. These are people who started with digital and never get a chance to experience the beauty of the slides and I hope some of them will give it a try themselves. Hopefully the industry will find a good way to keep E-6 viable as a niche art medium.

Try a ProCabin projector. Friends and I get together and do 6x7 slide nights a couple times a year. I love E100GX but truly, deeply miss Agfa Scala projected. Dr5 reversals are pretty but Scala was special.

 

[bishy]

Is it a large or a small Refrema? Are they running multiple control strips? Is the operator experienced in quality control issues?
5 hundred rolls equals around 100 rolls a day which from my background not very much but then again it all depends upon the above issues.
I am sure under this amount and the quality control can be hard to manage.

All questions im afraid i can't answer at this time,Bob. The lab to my understanding is the most popular E6 processing lab i could find. My thinking was it's better to go somewhere with a higher volume turn over than any other. Each order thus far appears consistent to the next. To my untrained eye there has been no drying marks,very clean transparency's and no color shifts each time i receive a batch back.

I guess i've not given you much info to go on,in fairness. They do advertise they run regular control strips. The E6 chemistry used in the processor are Fuji Pro 6 chemicals,if that makes any difference.

Thank you for the advice,Bob.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Let me explain

I thought you just said another and the most important reason to shoot transparency film youself, " there's nothing more beautiful than looking at an 8x10 chrome on a light box" . We could replace 8X10 with other film size (at least MF size) and I think the statement would work as well.

I just showed a group of friends yesterday some MF slides on a light table with a good loupe and they were all amazed at how beautiful and 3-D looking the images are. These are people who started with digital and never get a chance to experience the beauty of the slides and I hope some of them will give it a try themselves. Hopefully the industry will find a good way to keep E-6 viable as a niche art medium.

I didn't say it was an important reason. The reason I don't shoot transparency film anymore is that I haven't shot commercially in 15 years and I don't project my images. Also, there's no place to process 4x5 E6 in Sacramento. I also don't miss balancing color with those gelatin filters either

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Like what? Not agreeing with you? I have great local E6 processing but won't go chasing it all over N. America when it vanishes here. I'll buy and shoot transparency materials as long as it doesn't involve heroic processing measures.

No.

Like maybe setting expectations for ease and convenience of E-6 processing that are too high. Then when those expectations are not met, repeatedly telling us all that the system has completely collapsed. If it's completely collapsed, how are so many others - myself included - obtaining such high-quality and affordable E-6 processing? Obviously something is amiss here somewhere.

You do realize that it's not necessary for you to actually physcally travel all over North America to obtain processing? Right?

I don't know how it works with the Canadian postal system, but down here the protocol for me is to simply place the exposed film in a small mailer, attach sufficient postage, walk perhaps 65ft/20m to my home mailbox (I live in a rural area so the box is up on the street), place it in the box, and raise the little outgoing-mail flag.

Wait 43 hours while enjoying the exquisite anticipation inherent in almost all analog photographic processes...

Walk that same 65ft/20m a second time, retrieve the now processed slides from the same mailbox, walk back to my basement darkroom, turn on the lightbox, and lay out the frames for inspection.

Total time spent "chasing it all over N. America?" About 43 hours and 4 minutes, only 4 minutes of which involved any sort of active participation by me. Now I realize I can't pass judgement on another person's definition of "heroic processing measures," so providing that the Canadian postal system also offers pick up as well as delivery, I guess I'm going to have to ask:

Is 4 minutes your definition?

Ken

 

[Bob Carnie]

I think the most important thing is that you understand that the lab which is running more volume and runs control plots and are proud of their plots is the one to go to.
Fuji Kodak it does not matter, as long as you are getting consistant runs you are good to go.

One little trade industry trick, if you are taking photos of images with the same lighting ect. run a clip test at push 1/3 , make that your standard, then if the clip test is bang on run the rest, if your clip is too dark push the rest more, if it is a bit light drop back to normal... The front counter should have someone who is good at making a call or advising you .. By running the test at 1/3 you have more control of the final output and all it takes is giving them the test, go for lunch and coming back and making the final call on the balance of your film.

All questions im afraid i can't answer at this time,Bob. The lab to my understanding is the most popular E6 processing lab i could find. My thinking was it's better to go somewhere with a higher volume turn over than any other. Each order thus far appears consistent to the next. To my untrained eye there has been no drying marks,very clean transparency's and no color shifts each time i receive a batch back.

I guess i've not given you much info to go on,in fairness. They do advertise they run regular control strips. The E6 chemistry used in the processor are Fuji Pro 6 chemicals,if that makes any difference.

Thank you for the advice,Bob.

 

[bishy]

I think the most important thing is that you understand that the lab which is running more volume and runs control plots and are proud of their plots is the one to go to.
Fuji Kodak it does not matter, as long as you are getting consistant runs you are good to go.

One little trade industry trick, if you are taking photos of images with the same lighting ect. run a clip test at push 1/3 , make that your standard, then if the clip test is bang on run the rest, if your clip is too dark push the rest more, if it is a bit light drop back to normal... The front counter should have someone who is good at making a call or advising you .. By running the test at 1/3 you have more control of the final output and all it takes is giving them the test, go for lunch and coming back and making the final call on the balance of your film.

Thank you for the advice,Bob. I will keep a mental note,regarding your advice on clip tests.

 

[wblynch]

Wash, Rinse, Repeat...

 

[Chris Lange]

CRC and Duggal in New York City get all my color business that I choose not to do myself. They both do excellent work, I've never had issues with either.

I see a lot of hate for Duggal being spread around the net, but I have to say that I think people are being misled. My father shot fashion and beauty for Conde Nast and a number of other clients for 30+ years and used Duggal almost exclusively for the majority of his career. JR, the guy who used to run all of his jobs, as well as our family snaps, is now the one running my film whenever I choose to go there.

 

[M.A.Longmore]

* Heavy rain, high winds, hail, temps just above freezing, lightning and thunder, so dark that the streetlights were on all day long... and that was just yesterday alone.

.
Are you using a Vitamin-D supplement ?
With my schedule I barely get exposed to sunlight, so I use 10-20,000 I.U. per day.
Your requirements may vary.

Ron
.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

.
Are you using a Vitamin-D supplement ?
With my schedule I barely get exposed to sunlight, so I use 10-20,000 I.U. per day.
Your requirements may vary.

Ron
.

Heh, heh... Ya, maybe THAT'S my problem.

:w00t:

You must be clairvoyant or something, Ron. If I owned one of those digital imaging thingies I'd attach an image of the bottle of vitamin D pills that's sitting right now only twelve inches away on my desk. My doctor told me that low vitamin D levels are a huge problem up here - so eat those, or else...

Of course, I've also heard that Seattle has the highest suicide rate of any major American city due to the darkness and weather. (Not sure what our good friends up north in Vancouver, BC may think about that statistic.)

AND, my doctor also said that Seattle is the skin cancer capital of the US. Seems its episodic. There is so little direct sunlight year round that when the sun does come out everyone spends hours straight outside while unprotected. They're all terrified they may not see it again for another year or two. That's not an unfounded fear. Last "summer" ended up being about three straight weeks in August when it didn't rain. That's it. I managed to get my 8x10 out one single time locally.

Right now it's - you guessed it - raining heavily outside. And the weather report this evening is calling for rain for the next ten days straight, with wet snow mixed in on Wednesday and Saturday in the early mornings.

Imagine that...



Ken

 

[michaelbsc]

...
Of course, I've also heard that Seattle has the highest suicide rate of any major American city due to the darkness and weather. (Not sure what our good friends up north in Vancouver, BC may think about that statistic.)

AND, my doctor also said that Seattle is the skin cancer capital of the US. Seems its episodic. There is so little direct sunlight year round that when the sun does come out everyone spends hours straight outside while unprotected. They're all terrified they may not see it again for another year or two. ....


Right now it's - you guessed it - raining heavily outside. And the weather report this evening is calling for rain for the next ten days straight, with wet snow mixed in on Wednesday and Saturday in the early mornings.

Imagine that...



Ken

Great. Cheer me up. I've got to spend a few weeks just north of Seattle on a job in the dead of winter a few months from now.

I suppose "bring a heavy coat" would be good advice.

MB

 

[MattKing]

Michael:

Bring a rain coat, plus a sweater, plus boots.

Unless you are in the interior, or at higher elevations, we have way more rain than snow.

And we also have a few sunny days.

This was shot on November 23rd last year, on a cold and sunny day

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Great. Cheer me up. I've got to spend a few weeks just north of Seattle on a job in the dead of winter a few months from now.

I suppose "bring a heavy coat" would be good advice.

MB

Hey Michael,

Matt makes some excellent suggestions as usual. Nevertheless, don't forget to bring along one of these guys...

Dead Link Removed

• Wake up gently to a simulated sunrise
• Or relax to a simulated sunset
• Programmable from 10 to 90 minutes

If you put it outside on the window sill, you'll think you're in Hawaii.



Ken

 

[Henning Serger]

Lots of E-6 processing possibilites still out there, it seems. One just has to be willing to seek out and patronize the remaining locations, or use the postal services to reach them and then wait a couple of days.

Ken

Hello Ken,

exactly that is the point.
Reading the reports of all you North Americans the situation here in the middle of Europe even looks better.
Our situation here:

- about 45 professional E6 labs in Germany, Austria and Suisse ( about 35 of them in Germany)
- number of labs has been stable for the last two years
- most labs are doing mail order as well
- some labs have an extremely good mail order service (after only two days the films are back)
- quality of development is excellent with most labs
- all drug stores of the main drug store chains are offering E6 developing (some at ridicolous low prices)
- some labs have extended their programme of BW slide development
- five German manufacturers are producing slide projectors (Braun, Reflecta, DHW, Götschmann, RBT)
- Diaspeed has recently introduced a new revolutionary 35mm slide mount system without glass for best slide sharpness (much much better system than Wess; I've completey replaced Wess by the new Diaspeed mounts)
- AgfaPhoto fills the mass market of cheap ISO 100 slide film with it's AgfaPhoto CT Precisa 100 (it's made by Fuji); it's only 3€ a roll
- LSI in Vienna reports significantly increasing sales of slide films by their online shop and their LGS stores (that is one reason why they have introduced three slide films under their own brand during the last three years: some weeks ago they introduced a Tungsten slide film).

Best regards,
Henning

 

[CGW]

Hello Ken,

exactly that is the point.
Reading the reports of all you North Americans the situation here in the middle of Europe even looks better.
Our situation here:

- about 45 professional E6 labs in Germany, Austria and Suisse ( about 35 of them in Germany)
- number of labs has been stable for the last two years
- most labs are doing mail order as well
- some labs have an extremely good mail order service (after only two days the films are back)
- quality of development is excellent with most labs
- all drug stores of the main drug store chains are offering E6 developing (some at ridicolous low prices)
- some labs have extended their programme of BW slide development
- five German manufacturers are producing slide projectors (Braun, Reflecta, DHW, Götschmann, RBT)
- Diaspeed has recently introduced a new revolutionary 35mm slide mount system without glass for best slide sharpness (much much better system than Wess; I've completey replaced Wess by the new Diaspeed mounts)
- AgfaPhoto fills the mass market of cheap ISO 100 slide film with it's AgfaPhoto CT Precisa 100 (it's made by Fuji); it's only 3€ a roll
- LSI in Vienna reports significantly increasing sales of slide films by their online shop and their LGS stores (that is one reason why they have introduced three slide films under their own brand during the last three years: some weeks ago they introduced a Tungsten slide film).

Best regards,
Henning

Live it up. Kodak's down to 3 and Fuji's down to 5 E6 materials. Demand for E6 lab services and materials has already tanked in N. America. Both labs services and E6 materials are now either special order/mail order/ or limited availability items in many areas of N. America. I'm not so certain your situation will hold if either or both film makers cut selection further or, in the case of Kodak, stop production. What you don't know, apart from the impressionistic indices you cite, is the trend of processing and sales volume over the last 5 years.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Live it up. Kodak's down to 3 and Fuji's down to 5 E6 materials. Demand for E6 lab services and materials has already tanked in N. America. Both labs services and E6 materials are now either special order/mail order/ or limited availability items in many areas of N. America. I'm not so certain your situation will hold if either or both film makers cut selection further or, in the case of Kodak, stop production. What you don't know, apart from the impressionistic indices you cite, is the trend of processing and sales volume over the last 5 years.

Umm... Still waiting anxiously to hear if your definition of 4 minutes of active effort to obtain quality E-6 processing (without even leaving my home) is still considered "heroic processing measures." Remember, the only reason I don't do it myself is the quantity, speed, and convenience of the available commercial processing options.

Did you also notice that my (timed) turnaround of only 43 hours is virtually identical to Mr. Serger's European observation that "some labs have an extremely good mail order service (after only two days the films are back)?" And the same as 'BradleyK' reported earlier from British Columbia. That's three consistent reports from three different countries spanning two continents. And one of those countries is your own.

So CGW... What in the world are you doing wrong here? Is there some way we can help you to obtain the same excellent E-6 processing that the rest of us are currently enjoying? We're here to help.

:confused:

Ken

 

[CGW]

So CGW... What in the world are you doing wrong here? Is there some way we can help you to obtain the same excellent E-6 processing that the rest of us are currently enjoying?

I guess I'm missing the part where you actually read my posts instead of belching endless crank responses to some imaginary slight. I take my stuff to Toronto Image Works, about 45 minutes away with 4hr turnaround, where they run a tight, surgically-clean Refrema E6 line. If/when they shut it down, I'm done with E6 materials if mail order is the only option. By then, I suspect, Kodak and Fuji will be all but done with E6 materials anyway. Kodak's only making 3 and Fuji 5 now unless I'm missing something.

Enjoy your trips to the mail box.

 

[pukalo]

Why would you forgo send out slide service - are you that impatient, and against saving a few $$$? Well, I can help you with the first item - develop e-6 yourself at home - its fast and super easy. Fun too, but the bad news is that you will pay less per roll to home develop than at your local lab.
Seriously, you better start getting your thinking right, as C-41 isn't that far behind e-6, maybe a year or two. Better start accepting the idea of send out service, or DIY, that is the not too distant future. Or will you take the same attitude and toss C-41 for digital when your local pro lab no longer does film?

 

[Bill Burk]

I have the chems to develop at least a dozen rolls of E-6 at home - I just prefer doing my processing at 68-degrees.

Last couple weeks I got back two rolls from A&I, the most recent with a print-out inviting me to email if I had questions.

I'm heading to Disneyland next week, and funny thing is - I am more concerned that this might be the last trip I take to Disneyland with the kids. They're getting older. 16-year old boy - next time he'll rather go with his buddies - I am more concerned this is the last Disney trip, than this might be the last time I come back with a slide show.

Still, A&I is the best lab I sent slides to. I will miss the crisp dust-free (but not Pako) mounts. I'll miss the machine that sometimes called every slide number 1. In 17 years they never let me down once.