A Hasselblad user gets tempted by the Mamiya TLR system

sadfacej · Jul 17, 2022

First post. So I've owned a Hasselblad 500cm for a year or so. Incredible camera, great optics, etc etc. Decided to get into the system because as far as 6x6 medium formats with interchangeable lenses go, it's one of the lightest around, and of course.. it's a Hasselblad, I've always wanted to own one. It works great in the field, no complaints about workflow.

The dilemma comes after having had minor issues with the film back and a back-focusing 80mm lens. They're resolved now, but I've developed a (probably irrational) fear that I might have to deal with constant maintenance in the coming years. Of course, all cameras need to be maintained, but the Hasselblad seems to have tons of moving parts that need constant checkups.

I've used a Minolta Autocord before this. Got the impression TLRs are generally simpler. Hence me side-eyeing the Mamiya C220. From reading around, seems like most issues with the Mamiya C series are relatively simple fixes. The additional benefit is that with that camera, the lenses are lighter too. I'm not too fazed about losing Zeiss optics, they're amazing of course but great glass doesn't make a bad picture good. But I do worry a little about single-coated lenses (as far as I know, only the late 80mm and 105mm models are multicoated) since I tend to shoot landscapes and sometimes I shoot into the light. And it does annoy me that the body + lens is a bit more bulky than the Hassie.

But the entire Mamiya C system is substantially cheaper than a Hassie so I would get back a fair bit of money. And I'll probably spend a bit less money on maintenance since I don't have to pay for the CLA of a film back, just the body.

I guess I'm looking for thoughts of the veterans here. I’m probably overthinking this. I'm a fetus in the world of medium format, but I do know that I just want a camera that gets out of the way and I won't have to worry about too much about.

markjwyatt · Jul 17, 2022

I have a C330f and a C220f (as well as a C2) plus 4 lenses and accessories. The only system that I would consider moving up to from that is the Hasselblad CM. The only thing I would gain is significantly sharper lenses, plus maybe some convenience (film backs). On the other hand, Mamiya lenses are probably already higher resolution than most film. For instance the Mamiya Sekor 80mm f2.8 at f8 is reported to be 90 lp/mm. The Hasselblad 80mm f2.8 Planar is 130 lp/mm at f8. The best reading I find for a Zeiss Tessar 80mm f.2.8 @ f11 is 70 lp/mm, and the Zeiss Tessar is more than adequate sharpness. For the Tessar I used MTF at 10% contrast for comparison.

So, what you gain is clinical sharpness, probably approaching the sharpness of more modern lenses.

I found another single reference that tested all three. He reported in l/mm, so double it to compare to the above data (lp/mm):

Mamiya 80mm: 67 l/mm @f11 (sharpest center aperture)

Zeiss Planar 80mm: 96 l/mm @f8 center

Tessar 80mm (Rolleiflex): 68 l/mm @ f8 center

So in this comparison, the Mamiya is about as sharp as the Tessar.

George Collier · Jul 17, 2022

I had a Mamiya C3 back in the 60's. It's as you say, inexpensive, interchangeable lenses, and generally mechanically simple.
I used to shoot side by side with a friend who had a Rollie 3.5F. The difference in the sharpness, and, I felt at the time, contrast, was noticeable, the Rollei better on both counts, we shot the same film and processed them together in the same tank. And over several outings.
I could be wrong, but I always felt that the lens fixing mechanism ( a large clamping spring - which may be different now) was tinker toy, and I never really knew whether the film plane control on the Mamiya was as well machined as the Rollie.
Just my impressions.

Sirius Glass · Jul 17, 2022

I have had Hasselblads for years and the best way to avoid problems is to take the film back off the camera every three months and fire every lens from 10 to 15 times at 1 second as advised by my Hasselblad repair man. That keeps the shutter from getting slow or sticking. Beside that always be sure that the camera body and lens are cocked before removing or attaching. Those two things will avoid most of the things that could go wrong with a Hasselblad.

Kodachromeguy · Jul 17, 2022

Some comments:

1. I use my Hasselblad 501CM steadily but not at studio professional level use. No issues with unusual maintenance or back-focus. I once dropped my Hassy, but that was my blunder. Hasselblad USA repaired it.
2. No issues with my two Hasselblad A12 type 3 and type 4 backs at all.
3. The mechanical 500 Hasselblad bodies are repairable and, as of 2022, parts seem to be available in USA. I do not know the repair options in SE Asia.
4. You can't go wrong with the Mamiya TLR cameras. Great lenses!
5. I doubt in most normal conditions you would see one being superior than the other optically. I know, I know, a tripod-mounted picture using Panatomic-X might show the Hasselblad lens being marginally better, but folks need to get real on this sharpness and bokeh nonsense in real world photography.
6. Don't worry about the multi-coating issue. Use a hood and keep your lenses clean.
7. Enjoy your Hasselblad! Post some pictures from Singapore for us.
8. Oops, an update: Use both systems!

https://worldofdecay.blogspot.com/2018/03/the-long-view-and-some-gas-250mm-sonnar.html

Nokton48 · Jul 17, 2022

My own personal journey which unfolds here:

Jonesing for a Mamiya C33

Mamiya C33 New Body 105 DS 80mm 220 Back Porro Finder by Nokton48, on Flickr Back in the eighties I shot Weddings starting with the Mamiya C33 and 80mm lens. As business continued I picked every Mamiya model to the C330S. Later on I traded all of it and moved to Hasselblad and built that up...

www.photrio.com

Both systems have their distinct merits. Good to have both!

Rayt · Jul 17, 2022

How heavy is the Mamiya? As a Rolleiflex user I can’t imagine walking around with something this massive around my neck.

pbromaghin · Jul 17, 2022

markjwyatt said:
I have a C330f and a C220f (as well as a C2) plus 4 lenses and accessories. The only system that I would consider moving up to from that is the Hasselblad CM. The only thing I would gain is significantly sharper lenses, plus maybe some convenience (film backs). On the other hand, Mamiya lenses are probably already higher resolution than most film. For instance the Mamiya Sekor 80mm f2.8 at f8 is reported to be 90 lp/mm. The Hasselblad 80mm f2.8 Planar is 130 lp/mm at f8. The best reading I find for a Zeiss Tessar 80mm f.2.8 @ f11 is 70 lp/mm, and the Zeiss Tessar is more than adequate sharpness. For the Tessar I used MTF at 10% contrast for comparison.

So, what you gain is clinical sharpness, probably approaching the sharpness of more modern lenses.

I found another single reference that tested all three. He reported in l/mm, so double it to compare to the above data (lp/mm):

Mamiya 80mm: 67 l/mm @f11 (sharpest center aperture)

Zeiss Planar 80mm: 96 l/mm @f8 center

Tessar 80mm (Rolleiflex): 68 l/mm @ f8 center

So in this comparison, the Mamiya is about as sharp as the Tessar.

I think the Mamiya 135mm is even better than the 80mm.

Maris · Jul 17, 2022

I already have two roll film SLR systems, Mamiya RB67 and Bronica GS-1, but I recently bought from KEH a Mamiya C220 with the 55mm wide angle lens; the poor man's Rolleiwide. The TLR body was classified as "bargain" and the lens as "ugly". Both look good and work perfectly. So why the Mamiya C220 TLR?

I'm planning an extended series of long daylight exposures with a 10 stop ND filter and another series of infrared landscapes. In both cases the filters, ND and IR, are essentially opaque and black out the viewfinder of a SLR. It is tedious chore screwing and unscrewing a filter off a SLR lens a few dozen times a day, and not forgetting to do so, and not dropping the filter, and so on. A TLR avoids these problems.

markjwyatt · Jul 17, 2022

Maris said:
I already have two roll film SLR systems, Mamiya RB67 and Bronica GS-1, but I recently bought from KEH a Mamiya C220 with the 55mm wide angle lens; the poor man's Rolleiwide. The TLR body was classified as "bargain" and the lens as "ugly". Both look good and work perfectly. So why the Mamiya C220 TLR?

I'm planning an extended series of long daylight exposures with a 10 stop ND filter and another series of infrared landscapes. In both cases the filters, ND and IR, are essentially opaque and black out the viewfinder of a SLR. It is tedious chore screwing and unscrewing a filter off a SLR lens a few dozen times a day, and not forgetting to do so, and not dropping the filter, and so on. A TLR avoids these problems.

Shooting IR film using a 720 nm or better filter with a TLR is very nice.

markjwyatt · Jul 17, 2022

pbromaghin said:
I think the Mamiya 135mm is even better than the 80mm.

Both the references I linked would argue the sharpness numbers do not support that, but as we all know, a good lens is more than its sharpness numbers, and as long as you are close to a Tessar in sharpness, for many applications it is good enough. I have a 135mm I picked-up a couple of years ago, and have not used it much, but it does seem to be a nice focal length between normal and my Super 180mm, plus it is really compact.

markjwyatt · Jul 17, 2022

Rayt said:
How heavy is the Mamiya? As a Rolleiflex user I can’t imagine walking around with something this massive around my neck.

It is on the heavy side. I am not sure the Hasselblad would be a huge relief.

Sirius Glass · Jul 17, 2022

I had the Mamiya C330f with the 65mm, 80mm and 250mm lenses and every accessory in the known world and traded it all in for my Hasselblad 503 CX and the 250mm lens. I never looked back and went on to buy the 30mm Fisheye lens, 50mm lens, 80mm lens, 150mm lens and the 250mm lens, 2XE extender and the Hasselblad 903 SWC. While the Mamiya C330f has interchangeable lenses, I prefer also having interchangeable backs and the Hasselblad system. But what is really important is how the camera or cameras which you choose fit in your hands and how they operate for you.

PonySoldier1887 · Jul 17, 2022

I went through the same process not too long ago and I chose to dispose of the 500CM, 80mm f2.8 Planar and 150mm Sonnar with backs and other accessories simply because I have aged and "slowed down" enough that it didn't make sense to keep the Hasselblad knowing how expensive a thorough CLA are. Truth is that delicate mechanical "stuff" works better if exercised often! My C330f, 80mm and 105mm do everything I need and to my satisfaction.
Joel

Steven Lee · Jul 17, 2022

I do not know if the fear of maintenance is a good reason to switch platforms... But one nice thing about TLRs is that they're easier to use with B&W filters, especially with orange, red and ND. Anything darker than yellow makes it harder to focus on an SLR.

This will be especially noticeable on the Mamiya because the latest S and F versions are already easier to focus than the latest Hasselblads, even before filters are added. I love Mamiya focusing screens, I wish I could have them on all my WLF cameras.

Sirius Glass · Jul 17, 2022

PonySoldier1887 said:
I went through the same process not too long ago and I chose to dispose of the 500CM, 80mm f2.8 Planar and 150mm Sonnar with backs and other accessories simply because I have aged and "slowed down" enough that it didn't make sense to keep the Hasselblad knowing how expensive a thorough CLA are. Truth is that delicate mechanical "stuff" works better if exercised often! My C330f, 80mm and 105mm do everything I need and to my satisfaction.
Joel

Others and myself have posted often how to avoid high cost repairs. Selling before having problems sounds like panicking before having a reason.

AnselMortensen · Jul 17, 2022

One more thing....for critical composition, you're going to want/need a Paramender between the camera and tripod to avoid parallax issues.
My progression was:

Mamiya C33
Kowa Six
Hasselblad 500C
Hasselblad 500C/M.

Still have a 500C/M, but added a Bronica ETRS with an eye-level prism and a winder grip for ergonomic reasons.

Sirius Glass · Jul 17, 2022

AnselMortensen said:
One more thing....for critical composition, you're going to want/need a Paramender between the camera and tripod to avoid parallax issues.

A paraminder is must item have for close up photography with a Mamiya C series camera.

MattKing · Jul 17, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
A paraminder is must item have for close up photography with a Mamiya C series camera.

I have three different paramenders, but have pretty good success even without them.
My Mamiya C330 with waist level finder and two lenses fits into a smaller bag than my Mamiya 645 Pro with prism finder and two lenses requires.
But you should note that I have both - their strengths and weaknesses complement each other.
If I had to choose just one, it would be tough, but 45 years of experience with the C330 probably gives it a slight advantage - memories of my teenage years, you know.

sadfacej · Jul 18, 2022

Thanks for the replies everybody. This.. isn't making my decision any easier haha. Lots of supporters on each side.

I will say that I expect I'll be using the cameras mostly for hiking and camping trips, without a tripod. I've got a sufficiently light backpacking setup that I can afford to take an MF camera along with me. There's a part of me that's worried about how the Hasselblad will fare with tons of vibrations (even in a padded bag) from ascents/ descents, given how precisely tuned it is. The fear of constant maintenance is real.. tho as Sirius has pointed out, selling before having problems is irrational.

melvyn gill · Jul 18, 2022

sadfacej said:
First post. So I've owned a Hasselblad 500cm for a year or so. Incredible camera, great optics, etc etc. Decided to get into the system because as far as 6x6 medium formats with interchangeable lenses go, it's one of the lightest around, and of course.. it's a Hasselblad, I've always wanted to own one. It works great in the field, no complaints about workflow.

The dilemma comes after having had minor issues with the film back and a back-focusing 80mm lens. They're resolved now, but I've developed a (probably irrational) fear that I might have to deal with constant maintenance in the coming years. Of course, all cameras need to be maintained, but the Hasselblad seems to have tons of moving parts that need constant checkups.

I've used a Minolta Autocord before this. Got the impression TLRs are generally simpler. Hence me side-eyeing the Mamiya C220. From reading around, seems like most issues with the Mamiya C series are relatively simple fixes. The additional benefit is that with that camera, the lenses are lighter too. I'm not too fazed about losing Zeiss optics, they're amazing of course but great glass doesn't make a bad picture good. But I do worry a little about single-coated lenses (as far as I know, only the late 80mm and 105mm models are multicoated) since I tend to shoot landscapes and sometimes I shoot into the light. And it does annoy me that the body + lens is a bit more bulky than the Hassie.

But the entire Mamiya C system is substantially cheaper than a Hassie so I would get back a fair bit of money. And I'll probably spend a bit less money on maintenance since I don't have to pay for the CLA of a film back, just the body.

I guess I'm looking for thoughts of the veterans here. I’m probably overthinking this. I'm a fetus in the world of medium format, but I do know that I just want a camera that gets out of the way and I won't have to worry about too much about.

Andrew Kleinfeld · Jul 18, 2022

I got the Mamiya years ago, for the interchangeable lenses. But it was way too bulky and heavy (and clumsy) to carry around on walks. Rolleiflex ever since, happily.

melvyn gill · Jul 18, 2022

I have professionally owned and used both mamiya 6x7 and a pentax 6x7 for 40 years. I found the mamiya best for studio work, and its all mechanical manufacture means none of the problems associated with battery powered cameras. It is HEAVY, I never found using it handheld a practical proposition outside the studio, I used my pentax 6x7 in preference all the time, even lugging it around Greece on a location shoot. It produced fantastic results with no trouble for 20 years and I only had to change the 6volt battery half a dozen times in 20 yrs. The pentax lenses were very good and most come without the need for internal shutters because of the focal plane shutters. In other words your choice depends on what type of work you do!

guangong · Jul 18, 2022

I lean towards the small and compact. Hassy for MF SLR and Rollei for TLR. Never had a mechanical problem with ether camera. Have used my Rollei since late ‘60s early ‘70s. Previously had Minolta TLR...wonderful lens but focusing mechanism not robust and can fail. Never interested in Yashika, but seems to be highly regarded by users. Mamiya just seems too bulky.

jtk · Jul 18, 2022

melvyn gill said:
I have professionally owned and used both mamiya 6x7 and a pentax 6x7 for 40 years. I found the mamiya best for studio work, and its all mechanical manufacture means none of the problems associated with battery powered cameras. It is HEAVY, I never found using it handheld a practical proposition outside the studio, I used my pentax 6x7 in preference all the time, even lugging it around Greece on a location shoot. It produced fantastic results with no trouble for 20 years and I only had to change the 6volt battery half a dozen times in 20 yrs. The pentax lenses were very good and most come without the need for internal shutters because of the focal plane shutters. In other words your choice depends on what type of work you do!

That line of thought makes sense to me. What kind of camera do your current heroes shoot? I've mostly abandoned fillum but I'm tempted to get back into LF for studio type work (I'm more into Avedon and Penn than I am into Ansel)

A Hasselblad user gets tempted by the Mamiya TLR system

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