A digital camera that only shoots B&W

[Ariston]

I've got to give them this, Leica has some gonads!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._20050_m10_monochrom_digital_rangefinder.html

 

[removed account4]

I've got to give them this, Leica has some gonads!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._20050_m10_monochrom_digital_rangefinder.html

its a fantastic camera ! max martinucci has and uses one and makes copper plate photogravures using it. saw some of his
work last summer, just beautiful stuff.

 

[Rob MacKillop]

They've been doing that for years. The 10 is only the latest iteration. I bought used the first iteration at a good price, and it's easily the best purchase I've made. You can think b&w from conception to final realisation, with no editing to do at all, other than occasionally making slight adjustments to exposure in post. And the quality of b&w rendering is very high...consistently. It's a b&w digital for b&w film shooters. But, yes, that price when bought new is very steep. And the lenses can cost as much. I like to use old screw-mount lenses on it with the M adapter.

 

[jim10219]

Technically, all digital camera are B&W cameras. They use filters over the sensors in an array so that each sensor picks up only the blue, red, or green wavelengths. The camera's software knows which filter is located over which pixel, and reconstructs the color image from this. Often, they'll use a bayer array, where each pixel represented on a computer screen is made from four pixels on the sensor 2 green, one red, and one blue.

So the advantage of using a B&W only digital camera is you can get 4x's as many pixels out of the same sensor, since you're not having to dedicate 4 sensor pixels to each computer screen pixel. You can use a 1:1 ratio. This also allows you to use larger sensor pixels which will often have more sensitivity. And since you don't have the colored filters over each pixel, they can gather more light.

So if B&W photography is your only concern, it makes sense to buy a B&W digital camera. Though for most of us, it's probably not worth the expense, seeing as how easy it is to turn a color digital camera into a black and white image.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Does it just save you the step of gray scaling the image in PS?

 

[Ariston]

Technically, all digital camera are B&W cameras. They use filters over the sensors in an array so that each sensor picks up only the blue, red, or green wavelengths. The camera's software knows which filter is located over which pixel, and reconstructs the color image from this. Often, they'll use a bayer array, where each pixel represented on a computer screen is made from four pixels on the sensor 2 green, one red, and one blue.

So the advantage of using a B&W only digital camera is you can get 4x's as many pixels out of the same sensor, since you're not having to dedicate 4 sensor pixels to each computer screen pixel. You can use a 1:1 ratio. This also allows you to use larger sensor pixels which will often have more sensitivity. And since you don't have the colored filters over each pixel, they can gather more light.

So if B&W photography is your only concern, it makes sense to buy a B&W digital camera. Though for most of us, it's probably not worth the expense, seeing as how easy it is to turn a color digital camera into a black and white image.

That explains the crazy pixel count on that camera. I guess I never noticed these since I typically don't look at cameras that cost more than my car!

It's good to see companies do things like this.

 

[mshchem]

Yeah, I here these are the best . I have never even seen one. If I was a bit younger and a bit wealthier I would have one. Then really learn how to make proper digital negatives. It would be fun to need to carry yellow, red and green filters too!

 

[Ko.Fe.]

It is third version on Leica Monochrome. First one was released years ago.
Here is another company which is modifying sensors to be Monochrome only. Been around for sometime.
https://maxmax.com/shopper/category/9241-monochrome-cameras

 

[GG12]

That explains the crazy pixel count on that camera. I guess I never noticed these since I typically don't look at cameras that cost more than my car!

It's good to see companies do things like this.

Actually not. The “crazy pixel count” is the normal version, is comparable to color sensor performance. What happens is that internally, then get each of its (4) cells dedicated to color is now just dedicated to B/w. It’s not a numbers thing, rather it’s seen in the quality. I’ve used their first one w 18mp, and it surely feels like a lot lot more. And with increases in light sensitivity, allows for shooting higher up the ISO scale. This one must be amazing, although for a king’s ransom.

 

[Paul Howell]

I seem to recall that Kodak make a black and white digital body in the 90s.

 

[Luckless]

Does it just save you the step of gray scaling the image in PS?

Monochromatic sensors have a slight advantage of producing a cleaner base image - Regular colour sensors sample the light differently as they can only look at part of each pixel for each colour, so even if you're making a grey scale image from them the camera needs to do more approximations to account for how it samples. They also typically end up with smaller sample points as you need some space between the sub-pixel sensor sites.

Monochromatic sensors allow the sensor site to use the area of the whole pixel, including the small space that was taken up between the colour sensor's sub-pixels.

They can also be made slightly less noisy than a comparable colour sensor with less effort, as each pixel only needs to sample a single channel rather than sampling 3-4 [rgb/rggb sub-pixel layout]

We still see monochromatic sensors in scientific gear in part for some of these reasons. They can still produce full colour images, but need to snap a photo for each colour channel... So not the best for a sports camera.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Does it just save you the step of gray scaling the image in PS?

No. It saves someone who's after a black and white image the step of wasting three quarters of a sensor's resolution by using every pixel for luminance instead of filtering them for color. See post #4.

Thus, to obtain the same black and white resolution (after grey scale conversion) from a color digital camera as the Monochrom M's 40.9 megapixel sensor does, one would need to start with a 163.6 megapixel color sensor. I don't know of any commercially available photographic cameras like that, ignoring military applications. There are the Fuji GFX-100 and Phase One IQ3, to be sure, but they're "only" around 100 megapixels.

Of course, if Leica's 40.9 megapixels aren't "enough" for someone, they could always go for a Phase One XF IQ3 and more than double the count:

https://www.phaseone.com/en/Photogr...rations/XF-IQ3-100MP-Achromatic-Camera-System​

Price, however, would dwarf the cost of a Monochrom 10. Also, even a V850 scan of an 8x10 negative has more megapixels.

 

[Chan Tran]

Kodak even made some monochrome DSLR way before Leica. Nothing new, but most other manufacturers don't find it profitable to make one.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Monochromatic sensors have a slight advantage of producing a cleaner base image - Regular colour sensors sample the light differently as they can only look at part of each pixel for each colour, so even if you're making a grey scale image from them the camera needs to do more approximations to account for how it samples. They also typically end up with smaller sample points as you need some space between the sub-pixel sensor sites.

Monochromatic sensors allow the sensor site to use the area of the whole pixel, including the small space that was taken up between the colour sensor's sub-pixels.

They can also be made slightly less noisy than a comparable colour sensor with less effort, as each pixel only needs to sample a single channel rather than sampling 3-4 [rgb/rggb sub-pixel layout]

We still see monochromatic sensors in scientific gear in part for some of these reasons. They can still produce full colour images, but need to snap a photo for each colour channel... So not the best for a sports camera.

There are no regular color sensors, they do not exist.

 

[Oren Grad]

No. It saves someone who's after a black and white image the step of wasting three quarters of a sensor's resolution by using every pixel for luminance instead of filtering them for color. See post #4.

Thus, to obtain the same black and white resolution (after grey scale conversion) from a color digital camera as the Monochrom M's 40.9 megapixel sensor does, one would need to start with a 163.6 megapixel color sensor.

Not quite. The Bayer CFA is 1/4 R, 1/4 B and 1/2 G, so the math is a bit more complicated than that and the effective factor will be less than 4.

I don't know of any commercially available photographic cameras like that, ignoring military applications. There are the Fuji GFX-100 and Phase One IQ3, to be sure, but they're "only" around 100 megapixels.

Of course, if Leica's 40.9 megapixels aren't "enough" for someone, they could always go for a Phase One XF IQ3 and more than double the count:

https://www.phaseone.com/en/Photogr...rations/XF-IQ3-100MP-Achromatic-Camera-System​

Price, however, would dwarf the cost of a Monochrom 10. Also, even a V850 scan of an 8x10 negative has more megapixels.

The latest IQ4 series Bayer and monochrome backs are 150MP.

 

[Luckless]

There are no regular color sensors, they do not exist.

Right, all those colour photos from digital cameras are clearly just a figment of my imagination, and I totally haven't done development work with them in my career...

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Not quite. The Bayer CFA is 1/4 R, 1/4 B and 1/2 G, so the math is a bit more complicated than that and the effective factor will be less than 4...

What is that factor? Please explain the math.

...The latest IQ4 series Bayer and monochrome backs are 150MP.

OK, now we're getting there. What are their prices?

 

[Deleted member 88956]

Right, all those colour photos from digital cameras are clearly just a figment of my imagination, and I totally haven't done development work with them in my career...

You need to read up on digital sensor inner workings, none are color, filters make them so

 

[Luckless]

You need to read up on digital sensor inner workings, none are color, filters make them so

Given that I've helped build camera systems from chip design onward...

If the filter is built into the sensor itself, the sensor is filtered for that colour...

 

[Oren Grad]

What is that factor? Please explain the math.

The factor will be scene-dependent, even in an idealized model. But sorry, I'm not even going to try to explain the details. This isn't the place to try to teach all you would need to know about sampling theory to sort this out - even assuming I were competent to do that, which I'm not.

OK, now we're getting there. What are their prices?

The usual $40-50K.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Not quite. The Bayer CFA is 1/4 R, 1/4 B and 1/2 G, so the math is a bit more complicated than that and the effective factor will be less than 4...

What is that factor? Please explain the math...

The factor will be scene-dependent, even in an idealized model. But sorry, I'm not even going to try to explain the details. This isn't the place to try to teach all you would need to know about sampling theory to sort this out - even assuming I were competent to do that, which I'm not...

OK, can you offer a WAG? On average, greater than 2? Than 3?

...OK, now we're getting there. What are their prices?

...The usual $40-50K.

Without a camera. Makes the Monochrom 10 seem inexpensive.

 

[Chan Tran]

Perhaps the Foveon sensor can be considered as color sensor.

 

[Oren Grad]

OK, can you offer a WAG? On average, greater than 2? Than 3?

I've never tested a monochrome digital camera, so I have no experience on which I could base an estimate of my own. Others I've read who have paid close attention to this have given subjective estimates up to around 2. My impression is that 3 would be very optimistic.

But I also think that a single multiplicative factor isn't useful in telling me which I'd prefer or even, simplistically, which would look "sharper" or "better", just as a single "resolution" figure is far less informative about image character than a set of MTF curves.

 

[Luckless]

Perhaps the Foveon sensor can be considered as color sensor.

No more of a 'colour sensor' than any other sensor used as part of a colour sensor, just that it uses its own silicon as part of its filters. It just does more math to tell how much of the signal in the various layers are part of what colour. [ie, how much 'blue' light depends on difference between the blue signal and red signal - If all the light is picked up in both the blue and red levels, then we can assume none of it was actually blue basically.]

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

There was a time when I would have considered a Monochrome X100 style camera. In fact I still think Fuji should make one... But $8.3k for a 35mm camera is just wacka-doodle Leica nonsense.