It seems many of us always want what we can't have.
A Conversation with Kodak Alaris
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It seems many of us always want what we can't have.
I agree with PKM-25. People whining about Kodachrome even today are really off putting. /QUOTE]
You think that's bad. I keep pestering Ilford to re-establish Selochrome film in 116 and put it into vending machines in in railway stations for one shilling and sixpence with steam trains still running.
Alas, nostalgia in not what it used to be
pentaxuser
I do promote Ilford and Fuji. They are the only ones left offering what a lot of us are asking for. I won't recommend Kodak to anyone for one reason only, they keep dropping product right after they say they won't. Why beat the dead Kodak horse.
Support those who are supporting us, or I should say, most of us. I personally don't ask for anything from Kodak. They could bring back everything I loved and used, and would I go back to Kodak, nope. No use in me asking them for squat and I don't/won't. Since I can't get my favorites any longer, I have found new favorites from Fuji and Ilford. They get my business cause they offer me product that fits my needs.
So should I run out and buy Kodak products or tell everyone what wondrous offerings the big K has to keep them afloat when they offer nothing I can see as better or even more affordable than others.
Years ago I only used Kodak, and a lot of it. Just so you know.
My only comment is that now that this new company is on this, we should wait and not beat the "kodak sucks" drum, it's a new company, and this company might just be better, and then will still have awesome Kodak film. It is definitely possible for Ilford and Fuji and Kodak to all coexist together, and if anybody's dropping things it's actually Fuji these days, but yet I don't hear a lot of the same kind of bashing about how Fuji is killing off film, only that they are doing the right things for their business, which seems exactly what Kodak did, cut out films that they just couldn't make a profit on.
Seems a little hypocritical doesn't it? now admittedly my favorite film company is Ilford. Their product line is stellar. Fuji has a small line really in B&W it's just Acros100... The neopan400 is gone! But nobody got angry at Fuji for killing it they simply lamented the film's passing, stop hating and Kodak, and just support it. I have a feeling this new company will actually turn it around, and as long as we continue to support it at least not bashing it, then I think that there's a good chance it will be around for a long time.
Please. You're more knowledgeable than that. You know it and I know it.
Generating online posts to this or any other membership forum is not a prerequisite for purchasing and using film. Nor does visiting here, finding it's not your cup of tea, and not ever returning guarantee that an individual will never again purchase and use any film.
It seems to me that it is far more damaging to film in general, and to the new Kodak Alaris in particular, to attempt to enforce blanket gag rules on all film users concerning just what film products, both current and discontinued, they are allowed to discuss. By doing so, and constantly referring to them from within that context, you guys are giving the impression that it's Alaris who is doing the blanket gagging. And that looks terrible for both you and Alaris.
What is the harm in allowing people to wax poetic regarding their past fondness for Super-XX, Panatomic-X, Plux-X, or any of the others including, of course, Kodachrome? By allowing, and maybe even encouraging, such public discussions, it keeps the Kodak brand name on everyone's lips and minds. And with a little luck might even build a few bridges from the fond memories of using Kodak products in the past, to the potential of continuing to value, purchase, and use Kodak brand products in the future.
Wouldn't all of you EK/Alaris supporters rather have the market (whatever its size these days) debating the merits of anything Kodak, rather than doing the same for Fujifilm? Or Ilford? Or Adox? Or Ferrania? If not, you should. It's free publicity for gawd's sake! The company on everyone's mind is the company that gets remembered at purchase time.
Did it ever occur to you guys that by labeling photographers who want to talk about Kodak's past products as "sick" it only hurts the Kodak brand in the long run? Word of mouth, especially in the Internet age, is more valuable than gold. And marketing a brand name that "sick" consumers are forbidden to mention in public is tantamount to selling lead.
Ken
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A major reason a product is affordable is competition from other, similar, products. It's in all of our best interests for Kodak to survive. For that to happen, they need to shore up the film lines they presently carry, not reintroduce long lamented money losers, as much as many of us would like to see old favorites.
I'm not exactly sure of the parallels but, it seems to me, this situation is similar to Ilford's of a few years ago. The company was split, with the silver film/paper division going solo. It seems to have worked for Ilford. I hope it works for Kodak, too.
FYI to those interested...
This level of brutally-honest, in-depth, customer-originated product intelligence, regardless of its conclusions, is freaking priceless.
It doesn't matter which film company you may represent or be rooting for, this and all similar free customer feedback from anywhere else online should be required reading for all of those company's marketing departments. But in order to extract meaningful value from this, you have to be able to compartmentalize and set aside your initial knee-jerk reactions.
React emotionally, and crucial insights will sail over your heads. React analytically, and this is information that you can really do something with. It's industry-related actionable intelligence in the most classic sense of the term.
How so?
If you are Kodak Alaris and are looking to expand your current customer base, take a hard analytical second look at those final two sentences...
Ken
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No....
Ok, look .you have every right to speak for your self, but you have no place, no right and simply no basis for speaking for anyone else, right? I can give you a list of at least two dozen professional photographers who depend on quality Kodak films like Tmax, Tri-X and Portra. I have no way of listing how many enthusiasts use it but it is a quite a bit. There are countless people on here, Photo.net, LFF and RFF who swear by Kodak Tri-X, Tmax and Portra, tons in fact, and they often use Ilford and Fuji as well.
You dont think Kodak has supported you but they have, just like Ilford and Fuji has. But this is *business* and in business when a product is steadily underperforming, it stands to get axed. Fuji has done this, Ilford had in the past and will again if something becomes a fiscal paperweight, anyone would be a fool to think different. You have people asking Ilford for a true IR film to replace Efke IR820, 220 films like HP5, Pan-F in 4x5. You have people lamenting the loss of RVP in 4x5, the price rise of Acros in 4x5 and how it is oddly different that of 120. But it is OK for these other companies to make wise business decisions because they are not Kodak past ..read that again sir past. As in Kodak-alaris is NOT Kodak-perez. And that means for all of us who do count on Kodak products and there are a LOT, we are relieved that there is at least a chance that the current line up will stand a chance of sticking around.
I can almost assure you that at some point in the future, every single film maker will discontinue another film, possibly even Ilford. They are not taking it away from you personally, they are trimming off a product that puts ALL their film line at risk, get it????
I know a lot of people get emotional about this and what they choose to use, that is a good thing man. really. But if you are done with Kodak, pissed off at the photo world because the grand heyday of film from the early 90s is over and want to take it out on someone, please out of respect for the new people at the helm of Kodak film who love the product as much as others do, let it alone man, move on
All you are doing by parroting your personal issues with Kodak is distracting people from the mission at hand for all of us, to put ALL films in a better light.
WHAT? They ARE!!!!
And his last line about better products and cheaper than the competition...?...are you kidding me? Have you compared the price of any Kodak 120 film to any Fuji or Ilford? They are super close if not Kodak coming out cheaper. The new line of Ektar and Portra films are lauded by pros as the best they have ever used! Tmax 100 in 4x5 is over $1.00 a sheet cheaper than Acros!
Not even Ilford comes on here and sits and has a coffee based chat about how the product line is doing, what is close to break even, etc. Somehow the damned internet has people convinced that they have a right to sit in on every board meeting, every marketing strategy think thank, BS!!! That is not how business connect with their customers, it is proprietary information that none of us have any business knowing.
Bottom line, use the damned film, promote the film by word of mouth just like other business count on people doing. Once the financials of Kodak-alairs are in more steady footing, they will know where to flex marketing muscle. Don't expect big glossy print ads in PDN or NG magazine, 1-2 minute prime time Superbowl adverts either, those days are gone. Even Nikon is taking it in the shorts because of what the information revolution has done to devalue the artistic pursuit of photography, expect more carnage, more films to get axed and less expensive marketing fanfare for what you thought was the world of photography.
And be really grateful we have *any* film at all in 2014....
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The point being made of course is that were the poster to have been gagged from discussing his own personal dissatisfaction with EK (not Alaris), then Alaris would have had at its disposal one less valuable data point from which to measure their new situation and draw meaningful actionable conclusions.
You of all people should understand that criticism is FAR more valuable to growth than compliments. If the various post-mortem business analyses I've read are even moderately correct, stifled alternative points of view from within contributed mightily to EK's eventual downfall. No one wanted to listen to those who warned of approaching problems. I've also heard that same thing right here from various ex-EK employees.
If I show ten people one of my dorky amateur photos and nine of them tell me I'm a genius, those nine will each get a sincere smile and thank you in return. But the tenth person who called me a talentless idiot? THAT person will get as many hours of my undivided attention as he needs to explain to me exactly why he feels that way. And when he finishes the thank you he gets from me will be far, far more meaningful, because his criticism was far, far more valuable to my future growth.
The deal here is to defend the right, and value, of opposing points of view. There is no quicker way to lose your way than to surround yourself with nothing but people who will tell you exactly what you want to hear. Echo chambers can be devastating to one's grasp on reality. (As an aside, that's exactly why I have never, and will never, put anybody here on an ignore list.)
It's not necessary to believe that what the poster said was true for anyone but him. And, in fact, he never claimed to be speaking for anyone but himself.* But I strongly believe it IS crucial for both us and Alaris to hear him out. And others like him. Not emotionally. But analytically.
Think about what he says. Weigh and compare it objectively. Measure it against other opinions received. Decide if it illuminates the situation in ways that perhaps may have been inadvertently overlooked. And then form and carry out a remedial plan of action if one concludes that might be warranted.
But regardless of where his data leads, smile and thank that person for their honest input. It's priceless. Don't gag and threaten him with personal responsibility for destroying the entire industry. Do that, and both you and the companies you support will never improve.
Remember, if all one ever does is succeed, one will never grow. It takes failure to stake out the areas requiring improvement. Without failure, and recognition of it, your limits will never be known to you. And without knowing those limits, it's impossible to formulate a plan to exceed them.
Ken
* The poster referred to above uses "I", "my", or "me" no less than 17 times in his short 13 sentence post. I really don't believe he is trying to speak for anyone other than himself.
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My black and white flag just turned white, I surrender for now, I gotta go. I just see no point in anymore negative threads, film needs help.
I did this post to kind of sum it up, be sure to check out the video, its exactly what I am out living in when I am not distracted by these kinds of battle ground threads...I think I have burned a few hundred calories over this one.
I did this post to kind of sum it up, be sure to check out the video, its exactly what I am out living in when I am not distracted by these kinds of battle ground threads...I think I have burned a few hundred calories over this one.
Hey dan does your blog/forum support tapatalk app? Or forumrunner? Those are the only two ways I access forums.
Hey Stone, I gotta' ask. Do you ever sleep?
We stragglers out here on the West Coast usually close out the day (or evening) on APUG. Guys like 'MattKing' up north of me over the border in BC, 'anakin' down south of me in Oregon, 'akphotog' waaay up god-only-knows-where in Alaska trying to not get eaten by Grizzly bears.
After us the prime time APUG window moves out over the vast limitless reaches of the Pacific Ocean. Hawaii's out there somewhere about 6-7 hours of flight time from the mainland. But activity doesn't really pick up again for several hours until Oz finally logs in over the dateline for their evenings.
But you? You're always around here late at night on West Coast time. That's the middle of the night or early morning on the East Coast.
Man, don't you ever sleep?
Ken
We stragglers out here on the West Coast usually close out the day (or evening) on APUG. Guys like 'MattKing' up north of me over the border in BC, 'anakin' down south of me in Oregon, 'akphotog' waaay up god-only-knows-where in Alaska trying to not get eaten by Grizzly bears.
After us the prime time APUG window moves out over the vast limitless reaches of the Pacific Ocean. Hawaii's out there somewhere about 6-7 hours of flight time from the mainland. But activity doesn't really pick up again for several hours until Oz finally logs in over the dateline for their evenings.
But you? You're always around here late at night on West Coast time. That's the middle of the night or early morning on the East Coast.
Man, don't you ever sleep?
Ken
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Ignoring the EK bit above, I am curious why you think it's only criticism that will help one grow?
In the example of the 9 vs 1 you give, you assume that someone who calls you an idiot (quoting above) is not one and actually has something useful to answer.
I'm all for seeing multiple points of view, and it *seems* to me that you view only saying -ves gets things moving - I am not so sure that's true.
If you ignore the positives or think they cant tell you anything useful, then youre stuck with possibly a very very narrow stretch of the feedback loop.
Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk
Hey Stone, I gotta' ask. Do you ever sleep?
We stragglers out here on the West Coast usually close out the day (or evening) on APUG. Guys like 'MattKing' up north of me over the border in BC, 'anakin' down south of me in Oregon, 'akphotog' waaay up god-only-knows-where in Alaska trying to not get eaten by Grizzly bears.
After us the prime time APUG window moves out over the vast limitless reaches of the Pacific Ocean. Hawaii's out there somewhere about 6-7 hours of flight time from the mainland. But activity doesn't really pick up again for several hours until Oz finally logs in over the dateline for their evenings.
But you? You're always around here late at night on West Coast time. That's the middle of the night or early morning on the East Coast.
Man, don't you ever sleep?
Ken
Haha never, My life is devoted to APUG
In all seriousness in the movie industry there are times when the scene is happening and you're not really working and have a lot of time to preoccupy yourself. So I read and learn about film and post here.
The hours are sporadic so sometimes I'm up early posting, but I'm also a night owl so I'm up late too.
Also my work days are usually 12-15 hours plus 2 hours drive into NY and another 2 hours to drive home in rush hour (10mph) traffic. So I have a LOT of time to be on here...
The only time I'm not on is when I'm shooting, having "relations", sleeping, or actually working at work. Lol
Because of basic human nature.
Mothers teach their children, "If you don't have something nice to say, then don't say anything at all." And even if Mom didn't teach it, the norms of social interaction usually dictate it. Although it's always polite, a compliment may or may not be honest. But a criticism is rarely dishonest. People who like the effort have no real incentive to lie to you by telling you they dislike it. What would be the point?
Most often compliments tell you what you want to hear. That's the echo chamber effect. But criticisms tell you what you need to hear. And the person who levels the criticism goes out on a limb by doing so. That's why they deserve a sincere thank you for the chance they took. Without them, you would have never known what might need to be improved. You would have only been told what didn't.
Ken
I agree in parts about social norms, but discounting every positive review is hardly productive - many would definitely have more to say than just a 'nice one' - I guess the time could be spent gathering feedback from them as well. After all, you wanna know what works too!
Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk
Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk
I think constructive criticism is useful, just not bitter criticism.
Apparently Dan feels he's picked up enough new flat spots on his head for now and has stopped banging it against a wall. For his sake, I applaud that decision. 
My positive contribution is to strongly admonish you against ever "being on here" or in any other way interacting with your phone / electronic device while driving. The potential for death and destruction (yours and others') from distraction is unbelievably high. It's just not worth the risk.
Apparently Dan feels he's picked up enough new flat spots on his head for now and has stopped banging it against a wall. For his sake, I applaud that decision.
My positive contribution is to strongly admonish you against ever "being on here" or in any other way interacting with your phone / electronic device while driving. The potential for death and destruction (yours and others') from distraction is unbelievably high. It's just not worth the risk.
Dan's bought enough kodak film to support the company I'm sure haha.
Thanks, I've mentioned this a few times, 1 I only do it when I deem it safe (like driving 5mph or at full stop for example) and I have the expertise to know when it's safe, I'm a trained and certified precision driver, I drive with stunt guys in movies as my job, so I'm much more spatially aware and observant than other drivers, in fact I once had to text while driving backward as part of a scene that was of course making fun of texting and driving.
So I'm not doing it foolishly, and I know my limits and when it's safe for me.
I know this sounds arrogant but I've earned it and I will always put the phone down if ever I'm not capable of doing it safely.
Thanks for the concern of course.
Skimmed a lot of the last couple pages of bickering.
Realistically there's probably more chance of Fuji bringing back Astia and Provia 400X than of Kodak reviving E6. That chance is low but probably not zero since Fuji has brought back films before and are still making a limited range of E6 films.
Has Kodak EVER brought back a once discontinued film? What they have now is excellent. They own color neg as Fuji has nothing to compare to Ektar and doesn't compare that well to Portra either really. T-Max and Tri-X are excellent films, though in those categories there is competition.
Realistically there's probably more chance of Fuji bringing back Astia and Provia 400X than of Kodak reviving E6. That chance is low but probably not zero since Fuji has brought back films before and are still making a limited range of E6 films.
Has Kodak EVER brought back a once discontinued film? What they have now is excellent. They own color neg as Fuji has nothing to compare to Ektar and doesn't compare that well to Portra either really. T-Max and Tri-X are excellent films, though in those categories there is competition.
I agree, Fuji has some excellent long-term users of their color negative film, however I'm surprised by now that they haven't dropped that line entirely and just kept the E6 land B&W lines, perhaps they are holding out thinking that maybe Kodak wouldn't be around much longer, and therefore would only market, but as we can see with this new company, I think Kodak will be around for a long time and Fuji should focus on their last color film that sells well in a market that they own completely, and friggin get us some home processing 6 bath kits to the USA already! Haha
Does anyone know because I don't really know, I had trouble following loans what division of what company etc., but does this new company actually own the chemical making parts of Kodak? Perhaps Kodak could start making home E6 kits again for the USA. I know that's highly dependent on what Fuji does, however they would be the only one selling in the USA which I thought was a decent market in the E6 field? Maybe not?
Kodak Alaris owns neither the film making operation (that's Eastman Kodak) nor photo chemical manufacturing, which was previously outsourced to Champion and now reportedly to Tetenal.
Kodak Alaris has a lot of work to do to build back a positive image. So much ill will. I wonder how fair it really is. Maintaining the current product portfolio is also Ilford/Harman's position and as has been noted Fuji has been trimming many favorite products. Fuji has been positively sphinx like in offering information about discontinuances. KA is a new company, they deserve a chance to get their feet under them and try their best to succeed. I hope they do.
Wait, so if they don't make the film or the chemistry, what does that have to do with us? I'm a bit confused, it's probably complicated business stuff? But don't we want Eastman Kodak to be the one to survive? What DOES the new KA make?
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