A Conversation with Kodak Alaris

PKM-25 · Nov 11, 2013

Simon R Galley said:
Dear Miha,

Its not an issue but just on a few points : KENTMERE Photographic did not go 'belly up' KENTMERE Photographic was a profitable company when HARMAN technology Limited bought it and it remains so to this day although now absorbed into HARMAN, KENTMERE Photographic also had a wide range of wide format inkjet products as well that HARMAN technology continue to coat.

The KENTMERE range of products including mono RC paper, inkjet and film form an important part of our portfolio now and going forward.

Finally, HARMAN technology Limited is based in Mobberley, CHESHIRE ( not Macclesfield although it is quite near ) this was the former ILFORD Imaging factory built in 1984 on the site of the RAJAR photo works that have been at Mobberley since 1903.

The 6 Original Board Directors of HARMAN technology were all Senior Managers at ILFORD Imaging Limited and had ( and have ) in excess of 140 years service to ILFORD / HARMAN.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

Simon, thanks for chiming in and clarifying things like the above.

On another note, I do have a couple of questions that are more in line with how this thread has coursed, I understand you may or may not be able to address them in full or at all. It goes without saying that Ilford Harman is a great example of a company who realizes what a great niche film and other analog products are and have been effective at filling that niche in a reasonably profitable way.

So to better understand certain attributes of that success, in terms of the last 5 years of not only keeping sales of film and analog products healthy but possibly increasing those sales, which has been and continues to be most effective?

A. Web / Social & Word of Mouth. Examples are Facebook, APUG, select Flickr user groups that surround Ilford Harman products.

B. Web and print ad campaigns, promotions, editorial articles other paid marketing types of incentives and product press releases.

And if it was one but is now shifting to another, what does that look like and do you believe that it is important for Ilford Harman to continue with traditional paid marketing campaigns even if not as effective as web / social / word of mouth in order to simply be visible in those places?

PKM-25 · Nov 11, 2013

Ken Nadvornick said:
Heck, I gave him one of my printing easels...

And it is well used Ken, has it's own set of custom magnetic strips...

StoneNYC · Nov 11, 2013

AgX said:
If the normal person does not know about film, who is still ordering those hundreds of millions of prints originating from C-41 films in Europe??
These are common people. But meanwhile invisible with their film loaded cameras. But invisible does not mean inexistant.

I'm not saying some people don't know I'm just saying that there is a majority that may think that film is no longer produced, and I'm just suggesting that you give it a try and pick about 10 people randomly next week I just kind of asked them as if you're just looking for a place to buy film and see what they say I'm just curious more than anything for a real-life test rather than assumptions.

AgX · Nov 11, 2013

Maybe I'll do so...

Another figure: statistically about every 8th German (out of 80 millions) buys one film a year over the counter.

pbromaghin · Nov 11, 2013

Ken Nadvornick said:
So then, assuming for just a moment that such an international anti-film grand conspiracy is true, it's comforting to know that Alaris is already on it. They are on it, aren't they? By quickly rolling out highly visible new advertising and awareness campaigns to counter and blunt this digital conspiracy against film? And to begin shifting the marketplace back into their favor?

Ken

Whhaaaaaat?

Ken Nadvornick · Nov 11, 2013

pbromaghin said:
Whhaaaaaat?

Taking the obviously incorrect converse point of view in order to more clearly define and advance the original argument.

Ken

pbromaghin · Nov 11, 2013

Oh, thank goodness. I thought for a minute there that you had completely lost it.

Prest_400 · Nov 11, 2013

Wow, quite a discussion up here! And I just find it before going to sleep... Anyways will try to write a few points around but I might miss as I'm quite tired.
And Dan, you finally updated the blog, nice! Will have to read that post soon.

PKM-25 said:
There is a somewhat sinister momentum that has been taking place in regards to the public's awareness on film ever since all the news about the demise of Kodachrome that Stone is talking about.
[...]
This is NO JOKE dammit, so THINK about this next time you ask for Pan-F in 4x5 or the return of Kodak E6. The best thing you can do as a film user to help market digital is keep asking for films that have been discontinued. Because you are making a potential film user feel like they are late to the party and all the good stuff is gone, so why bother.

It's completely baffling to me how some can not see this...

I think the conspiracy era has passed but there is that negative momentum in that people think film is dead. I guess that it was the Overwhelming tsunami of digital that just filled in all the information channels everywhere and film (as interest for the public) vanished in an information point of view.
A friend once told me: "Oh, film, I thought it ceased to be manufactured a long ago, I just remember it was quite expensive". Rather than the general public, cater to the Amateur/pro, the Nikon DF client.
And all the hype and interest is in digital. Difficult to change that, but it's easy for alaris to keep mentioning film on their pages.

Have a look at Google trends searching film related terms. Gives a sense of googling volume.

And well, I think Alaris are doing a good job at the moment. Probably much better than EK and it's unpredictability. Expectations matter a lot, and if people believe that it's getting worse, it will be worse.

As of Kodachrome, I am (now) 19. Didn't get to shoot it until the last and ended loving it. I understand it's unfeasible to bring it back, but I'm a case in which a bit of consumer curiousity led into it. I think it was crazy to ask them about Kodachrome. E6 is all it can be aspired to remanufacture with a reasonable frame.

edp · Nov 12, 2013

PKM-25 said:
Great Kodak film shooters like John Sexton and ULF film vendors like KB Canham Cameras all link and like each other on Facebook to great effect, that is proper marketing

Is it? A few industry insiders "liking" each other on Facebook? This is the kind of proper marketing the man in the street who thinks Kodak closed down when they stopped making Kodachrome is never going to see.

analoguey · Nov 12, 2013

edp said:
Is it? A few industry insiders "liking" each other on Facebook? This is the kind of proper marketing the man in the street who thinks Kodak closed down when they stopped making Kodachrome is never going to see.

For every 10 people on the street, there's 1 on facebook - dont count it out.

Twitter and Facebook are both news and information sources to people now. Regardless of age and location.

Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk

Simon R Galley · Nov 12, 2013

Dear PKM,

As other people have said this is a KODAK Alaris thread but to briefly answer your question, our marketing efforts have certainly moved away from printed media to the Web and web based methods in the last 5 years, but our brand allows us to get more editorial and coloumn inches than perhaps our $ size would justify.

Lots of our 'sweat' marketing ( meaning time / effort / not always money ) comes from work we do with our distributor partners around the world to promote analog ( monochrome mostly) photography and especially relating to photo education and things like Defend the Darkroom.

The issue we always had was ILFORD 'the smallest of the biggest or the biggest of the smallest' photo companies.

This makes broader ( world wide ) marketing initiatives challenging for us.

I had an excellent markeeter mentor when I joined ILFORD Photo...loooooong ago and I have never forgot what he said about print advertising

'Simon... its all very well but only half our advertising works...I've been at this for thirty years and I still don't know which half it is ! '

I hope that helps a bit.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

Simon

PKM-25 · Nov 12, 2013

Simon R Galley said:
Lots of our 'sweat' marketing ( meaning time / effort / not always money ) comes from work we do with our distributor partners around the world to promote analog ( monochrome mostly) photography and especially relating to photo education and things like Defend the Darkroom..

Thanks for taking the time to reply Simon, great insight and very down to earth in prose. The quoted statement above really embodies what we all need to be doing I think, including Kodak alaris. I knew it was somewhat edgy to ask you to reply on this thread but in some ways, it shows exactly what a company who makes film and wants to sell it needs to be doing.

I defend Kodak a lot, because I know that the people who really want to do more of the above have had their hands tied by the previous regime. But Colleen....and I know that you are reading this, it's time. It's time to really start making a presence in communities like this one and for very little capitol investment engage with past, present and future film customers in refreshing new ways. You have a captive audience right now, some naysayers, some hopefuls and some dreamers, engage with all of them in the manner in which Simon has above and you will have fully seized your new day.

With all due respect to Colleen, Audrey and the rest of Kodak-alaris, I hope to see you present your selves to us within 6 months in a manner that tells us that you are being smart in how you market your product line and inspire people to put their faith back into the yellow boxes.

Aside from continuing to make fine images with your products, I have done all I can, so come on now, join the party.

pbromaghin · Nov 12, 2013

PKM-25 said:
Thanks for taking the time to reply Simon, great insight and very down to earth in prose. The quoted statement above really embodies what we all need to be doing I think, including Kodak alaris. I knew it was somewhat edgy to ask you to reply on this thread but in some ways, it shows exactly what a company who makes film and wants to sell it needs to be doing.

I defend Kodak a lot, because I know that the people who really want to do more of the above have had their hands tied by the previous regime. But Colleen....and I know that you are reading this, it's time. It's time to really start making a presence in communities like this one and for very little capitol investment engage with past, present and future film customers in refreshing new ways. You have a captive audience right now, some naysayers, some hopefuls and some dreamers, engage with all of them in the manner in which Simon has above and you will have fully seized your new day.

With all due respect to Colleen, Audrey and the rest of Kodak-alaris, I hope to see you present your selves to us within 6 months in a manner that tells us that you are being smart in how you market your product line and inspire people to put their faith back into the yellow boxes.

Aside from continuing to make fine images with your products, I have done all I can, so come on now, join the party.

There must be some really bad things going on with the Kodak (U.S.) distribution system right now. Twice in the past couple weeks, photo store assistant managers have told me that Kodak film was hard to get. And these were major stores. I hope it's because of the uncertainty surrounding the sale and not an indicator of the future.

StoneNYC · Nov 12, 2013

pbromaghin said:
There must be some really bad things going on with the Kodak (U.S.) distribution system right now. Twice in the past couple weeks, photo store assistant managers have told me that Kodak film was hard to get. And these were major stores. I hope it's because of the uncertainty surrounding the sale and not an indicator of the future.

This was mentioned earlier, it's not just in the US apparently, it's worldwide?

PKM-25 · Nov 12, 2013

pbromaghin said:
There must be some really bad things going on with the Kodak (U.S.) distribution system right now.

I would not assume that a stall in distribution means bad things are going on, we all might need to give them time to make adjustments in how they distribute. Also, "Big Stores" in general are now different than "Big Stores" in terms of film, B&H, Adorama and Freestyle all show plenty of Kodak stock.

Lets try to be positive in that they are making needed adjustments.

Ken Nadvornick · Nov 12, 2013

PKM-25 said:
But Colleen....and I know that you are reading this, it's time. It's time to really start making a presence in communities like this one and for very little capitol investment engage with past, present and future film customers in refreshing new ways. You have a captive audience right now...

This is precisely the course of action I have been advocating.

The film-using community all over the world is waitingand has been waiting, and waiting, and waitingfor any post-bankruptcy good news about Kodak-brand films. Not dry press release news that no one reads. Real news that reverberates across the Internet, where photographers who use film talk about film. And where the brand name Kodak is being talked about less and less every day. Both positively and negatively. No matter what, you never want the customer base to just end up forgetting about you. Or to begin assuming you're extinct.

If Alaris has any of that good news sitting around on the shelf and waiting for an opportune time to be heard, this is likely that time. Wait too long and the good news film-users do finally hear may very well end up coming from someone else.

Ken

eddie · Nov 12, 2013

PKM-25 said:
It's time to really start making a presence in communities like this one and for very little capitol investment engage with past, present and future film customers in refreshing new ways.

I agree 100%. I think it almost borders on negligence for an analog photo company not having a presence here. A simple "hello", and a promise to try to keep us up to date on Alaris' progress (and plans) would go a long way towards instilling confidence in the company.

Prof_Pixel · Nov 12, 2013

It seems to me that the limited size Alaris staff has lots of more important things to do than listen to a bunch of grumpy old folks complain about them. They need to look to the future and not the past.

pbromaghin · Nov 12, 2013

They can start by explaining when dealers will begin to receive deliveries of all those existing emulsions they intend to keep.

eddie · Nov 12, 2013

Prof_Pixel said:
It seems to me that the limited size Alaris staff has lots more important things to do ...

Really? This place probably has one of the largest collection of passionate consumers of their products. They can't find ten minutes a week?

erikg · Nov 12, 2013

Kodak Alaris has been active on Twitter.

Ken Nadvornick · Nov 12, 2013

Prof_Pixel said:
It seems to me that the limited size Alaris staff has lots of more important things to do than listen to a bunch of grumpy old folks complain about them. They need to look to the future and not the past.

Substitute Kodak for Alaris in the above and you will have an excellent insight into some of the saddest contributing reasons why EK went bankrupt. This attitude does unbelievable damage to the Kodak brand.

Ken

Prof_Pixel · Nov 12, 2013

As of this posting, a grand total of 40 forum participants have contributed to this thread - from around the world. What kind of attention do you think 40 people deserve when I'm sure they are busy with many things needed just to complete all the steps (like dealer agreements) necessary to make things work around the world. They were at the recent Photo Plus Expo in NYC where I'm sure they reached far more than 40 people. Let's be realistic and not take our selves too seriously here on APUG.

eddie · Nov 12, 2013

Simon, and Ilford, seem to find the time...

Ken Nadvornick · Nov 12, 2013

Prof_Pixel said:
As of this posting, a grand total of 40 forum participants have contributed to this thread - from around the world. What kind of attention do you think 40 people deserve...

None, Fred. Absolutely none. Likewise by extension the aggregate group that produced the 3,616 thread views on this topic, and the 66,528 who produced the 1,411,977 film-based threads on APUG, with the multi-millions of aggregate views of those film threads.

You're right. These people don't mean a damn thing to Kodak, either EK or Alaris. Nor do any of those other film-purchasing photographers they speak to out in the field. Or speak to online. Why any of these people should be of even the slightest concern to Kodak Alaris is a complete mystery. I mean, all they are doing is getting in the way of a film company trying to run a successful business.

Those sick, grumpy, arrogant film-purchasing twits...

Ken

A Conversation with Kodak Alaris

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency