A bit confused about film speed...

JBrunner said:

I think that is extremely lucid. For me, many theories and methods only begin to make sense with practical experience, even though I learned about them early on. I don't know of many photographers who actually use the zone system dogmatically, but there are some. I think most "Zoners" use a personal variation or adaptation that fits their temperament and working style.

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Jason,

Even those of us working with color transparencies work with sort of an abridged version of the zone system. Since we normally only have 3-4 usable stops, we have to place our 18% to get the most out of the scene (that and/or work with ND Grad filters or change the composition).

My friend Charlie Campbell author of the Ampoto book The Backpacker's Photography Handbook came out with what he calls the ChromaZone system particularly useful for transparency work over 10 years ago. This entails the use of a series of colored cards that are used in the field for adjusting the exposure in as little as either 1/2? or 1 stop increments from 18%.

Rich

Rich, when I have shot transparency I have placed my exposure square in the middle of the average (for an average scene) because it seemed the safest place given the latitude of film. Do you feel that transparency film has more tolerance toward highlights? and if so where would you place your exposure in relation to 18% given a typical simple landscape shot (good light, foreground, distance and sky) Average of foreground and distance, and a grad for the sky, perhaps? Like 40 asa for Velvia, and the grad?

An attraction of the Zone System and that "rote testing" at the beginning, I think, is that it provides a way to learn photography from books and get some control of the process, if one doesn't have someone to show them what a good negative looks like, and if one may not have access to many galleries or museums that display fine prints. Once you've got that control, though, I agree, it's probably not so necessary to think about the Zone System very much.

JBrunner said:

Rich, when I have shot transparency I have placed my exposure square in the middle of the average (for an average scene) because it seemed the safest place given the latitude of film. Do you feel that transparency film has more tolerance toward highlights? and if so where would you place your exposure in relation to 18% given a typical simple landscape shot (good light, foreground, distance and sky) Average of foreground and distance, and a grad for the sky, perhaps? Like 40 asa for Velvia, and the grad?

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Hi Jason,

First, for Velvia 50 for over about 15 years I have rated it at ISO 40. I do not expose my transparencies the way most photographers I know. I will describe what I do below and then bracket in either 1/3 or 1/2 stop intervals to CYA. First thing that I do is to check the exposure range of the scene. If the scene will hold on film it is relatively easy. If not I have to either rethink the composition or grab generally a 2 or 3 Stop ND Grad (I also just got one of the Singh-Ray 2 stop Reverse ND Grads for when the sun is near the horizon and therefore the brightest part of the scene). Of course, if need be you can combine the ND Grad filters (something I have yet to do).

The way that I check the scene is to check the brightest and darkest part of the scene with my Zone VI Modified Soligor Digital Spot Meter. I expose according to the brightest part of the scene so that the highlights will hold. To set the exposure, I open the aperture about 1 1/2 stops more than the meter indicates for the highest meter/ev reading. Basically what I am doing is trying to hold some detail in the highlights the same way that you would open the aperture by 1 to 1 1/2 stops to correct for transparencies shot with either snow or white sand. If the exposure holds at between 3-4 stops everything drops in place. I let the dark/black areas go dark. If I have to grab a ND Grad filter, I align the grad filter and generally try to adjust the exposure based on the number of stops for the 2 or 3 stop correction from the amount for the 1 1/2 stops mentioned (adjust as much as I can by shutter speed, the rest by aperture). Again, this almost always works. Bracketing takes care of the rest.

Rich

ZS

I was well into the zone system for quite a few years (about 20) The system you really want is the one that works for you. Lately it's just so simple that it makes me laugh. My Ricoh TLR loaded with Fuji Acros 100 developed in Rodinal 1:100 on a motor base. I haven't bothered with N+1 or N-1 for quite a while. My negatives are printing fine on a grade #3 paper with Amidol as the dev. That's not to say all the negatives are perfect but the % is high enough that it works for me.
Best, Peter

Jason,

Rich's description is pretty close to what I do myself. I think that the difference between us has to do more with styles and where we live. As you have noticed I often have the sun in my images. In those situations, I expect that that part of the image will not record on film and just live with it. However, I will meter off a nearby cloud (that I want to be 18% grey) or meter 90° from the sun on the sky to get my base reading. Then I will meter the foreground to see what the total range of the image is, from there I will decide whether to use a split neutral density filter or not. In those situations where the sun isn't present, my metering technique is almost exactly what Rich does.

roteague said:

Jason,

Rich's description is pretty close to what I do myself. I think that the difference between us has to do more with styles and where we live. As you have noticed I often have the sun in my images. In those situations, I expect that that part of the image will not record on film and just live with it. However, I will meter off a nearby cloud (that I want to be 18% grey) or meter 90° from the sun on the sky to get my base reading. Then I will meter the foreground to see what the total range of the image is, from there I will decide whether to use a split neutral density filter or not. In those situations where the sun isn't present, my metering technique is almost exactly what Rich does.

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Robert,

Agreed, however, there are the times where the sun is in my images and I do much the same as Robert. Some of these images are still only on my website or in my files and have yet to be uploaded here at APUG.

Rich

For landscapes on color transparency, I do pretty much what Robert and Rich do.

For birds I spot meter. I'll place white feathers in bright sun about 1-1/3 stops over middle gray and let the shadows fall where they may. For a predominantly black bird, I might put it one stop under middle gray and let the highlights go where they will. On the odd occasion that I might photograph penguins, well, I hope for an overcast day.

Art Morris has a good metering guide for bird photography using a center weighted averaging meter, aperture priority AE, and the exposure compensation dial. It's in _The Art of Bird Photography_, and I think it may be on his website at www.birdsasart.com.