A big blow to film production at Kodak and Fuji

[lxdude]

I use both black & white and color. If I could not use Portra or Ektar, I would probably be sucked into the black hole called "digital".

Steve

You can't be Sirius!

 

[lxdude]

I recently purchased a new cable release and a miniature spirit level for the camera hotshoe (for architectural shots).

Both packets said, in huge letters...... "DIGITAL" !

Yep. My local camera shop sells digital camera straps. Turns out there's a little pocket for cards on it, so it's not totally ludicrous, but still...

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Porn industry have big interest to film and small russian cameras. May be hot babes will save the kodak , go and buy a hustler

 

[Photo Engineer]

So survival is not possible without ECP sales being very high?

I did not say that.

Without good sales in cine print films, it is going to be harder for both Kodak and Fuji since they are really the only players in this field, for all practical purposes. And, ECP and ECN drive Kodak R&D to a certain extent having given us mixed grain, 2 electron sensitization and dye layering.

As an added item, on a sad note, the inventor of 2 electron sensitization died recently at a fairly young age. I was very saddened to hear the news. So you see, many of us will not be around longer to "revive" anything.

PE

 

[lxdude]

ECP, ECN, P&S Neg, Neg Color, Color Papers, Neg B&W, misc.... Kodak sales from highest to lowest.
Cine Print, Cine Neg, Pos Color, Neg Color, Color Papers, Neg B&W, misc... Fuji sales (estimate) from highest to lowest.
PE

P&S Neg=point and shoot neg, i.e., disposables? Or "consumer" film?

Kodak's Pos color is so low it falls under misc.?

 

[Photo Engineer]

P&S Neg=point and shoot neg, i.e., disposables? Or "consumer" film?

Kodak's Pos color is so low it falls under misc.?

Yes, consumer film!

And yes, E6 would probably be under misc. It is certainly low in sales and has not been "driven" for improvements as has the Portra and Ektar films. Remember that these are my estimates. Call it an educated guess!

PE

 

[michaelbsc]

Looks like I did it the wrong way round then!


Steve.

What? You took up photography because you thought they'd stop making guitars?

 

[Ektagraphic]

Is 35mm reversal ever shot in camera on a fairly large scale project?

 

[michaelbsc]

Kodak and Fuji will both reach a point where their film production becomes, for all practical purposes, unsustainable ... I would think that it might take place in the next 10 years.

....

So, there will come a point at which color film becomes a rare item and B&W will probably be our best and nearly only choice. Hand coating of film, plates and paper will become a viable option. Quality manufactured film and paper will not vanish but will become a luxury item or a boutique item. Hand coating may become popular again.

PE

Exactly as I have been thinking to myself silently, which is why I've been latching on to every piece of info I can find about color separation, bromoil, dye transfer printing, and home-made coatings I can find.

Kind of a bummer that as soon as I get the kid out of college and have a few spare bucks for myself the hobby I treasured as a kid begins to fall apart.

So, if I have to make glass plates, then I'll make glass plates. If I have to hand coat paper, then I'll hand coat paper. If I have to boil plant stems or grind rocks to get my own color dyes, then I'll boil plant stems and grind rocks. But I've been waiting 25 years to get back into this, and no mere lack of commercial materials will stop me, regardless of what compromise must be made in the product.

 

[lxdude]

Is 35mm reversal ever shot in camera on a fairly large scale project?

George Clooney said the Gulf War movie "Three Kings" was shot on cross-processed Ektachrome, though I read elsewhere it was actually Ektachrome with the bleach-bypass process.

 

[michaelbsc]

Not that I am a big fan of their products, but how much of Fuji's income is on the movie film in comparison to Kodak? How well would Fuji survive without their movie business?

I don't know about Kodak, but Fuji has a broader product range than just film. They make a lot of offset printing plates, and a fair amount of magnetic media as well. However, to remain viable any independent production line has to have throughput. Even if somehow Fuji or Kodak started making a mint on some totally unrelated product, that wouldn't help the film side of the business. And the bean counters would eventually win out.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Is 35mm reversal ever shot in camera on a fairly large scale project?

NO.

Reversal products dupe and print poorly and therefore are not commonly used to make motion picture for distribution unless the distortion they offer is desired in the final product which IMHO would be awful.

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

I have been investigating how one might make single color plates or color prints using information and chemicals available to anyone. Well, the information is there, but the chemicals are hard to get.

I have asked the Formulary, and they can get most any chemical you might want that is not restricted, but the cost is something else. So, until we have a real source via organic synthesis, this is a non-viable route. I do have synthetic routes to some easily used couplers and the structures of some dyes for dye bleach. If there are any organic chemists out there, I will be glad to post some information.

I have also asked 2 other companies, and one rather ignored me for the most part except for simple chemicals and the other is sluggish to say the least. I am working on sourcing things.

PE

 

[Ektagraphic]

I don't remember it already being discussed in this thread but do you happen to know if there has also been a good decline in the demand for camera films lately?

 

[michaelbsc]

Without claiming to be an organic chemist, let me encourage you to post things. If an organic chemist materializes then they will find it.



It\'s always better to have too much information than too little. Or at least it\'s easier to sort with too much than fill in from too little.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I don't remember it already being discussed in this thread but do you happen to know if there has also been a good decline in the demand for camera films lately?

A good decline? Explain how a decline can be good first before I post.

PE

 

[ntenny]

I know I'm in a minority here, but I care more about the availability of E-6 than C-41. In your view, PE, does slide film benefit from the economies of scale offered by the cine business, or is it already pulling its own weight, as it were? (I assume it's making *some* money for Kodak and Fuji, because, you know, still available.)

Would a real crash in the cine film market have serious fallout for slide films---because of chemical availability, or whatever---or is it really only an issue for the C-41?

-NT

 

[Photo Engineer]

Simple organic chemistry is complex to most others. It is rather arcane in appearance and rather bizarre in practice. Add to that the methods of making a dispersion or making a coating.

I had wished to post a series on System Engineering in B&W and Color, but there was so little interest, and it took so much time that I decided to quit. Why work on something that won't generate any interest until 2020? I won't be around to care.

Look, you guys talk a lot but have little real interest or there would be more people willing and able to make hand coatings and some would be interested in system engineering. I can count on one hand, people REALLY interested in this. Most others vanish when the going gets tough. The proof of this is that out of the entire membership of APUG only about 5 people are actually making coatings on their own!

When it takes me a week to come up with a long post on this, for just 5 people, is that worth it? It is easy to give glib answers, but hard to stick it out and finish a hard read of what is needed to make a film or paper.

Sorry for the rant!

I feel compelled to add that there are so many "experts" out there who know it all that this compounds my efforts and dilutes them by "proving" that I know what I am talking about. (sorry for the added rant)

PE

 

[Photo Engineer]

I know I'm in a minority here, but I care more about the availability of E-6 than C-41. In your view, PE, does slide film benefit from the economies of scale offered by the cine business, or is it already pulling its own weight, as it were? (I assume it's making *some* money for Kodak and Fuji, because, you know, still available.)

Would a real crash in the cine film market have serious fallout for slide films---because of chemical availability, or whatever---or is it really only an issue for the C-41?

-NT

Nathan;

You are totally off the mark. Sorry.

All non-cine films at Kodak are dependent on cine. So, a crash in the cine market will affect everything.

There is a minimum coating "size" that applies to all films regardless of type. That is basically one master roll! If you fall below this in consumption, then the product is dying or dead! This is regardless of type.

E6 products are lower at EK than C41 products in terms of consumption, but not in production. Two different aspects. Therefore EK is making enough of both product types to justify production of them, but E6 products are very low in that scale of things. Kodachrome fell off the bottom and now is "retired". So, as production falls, we approach that limit, whatever it may be. So far we are not there.

Rejoice and use Kodak E6 films if you like them.

PE

 

[michaelbsc]

Ron,



Don\'t count me out yet. I\'ve spent the last few years assembling a small lab to work in.



So within a few more months there will be 6. (But right now I have to replace the blower motor on the air handler which just died this past Sunday. )



MB

 

[Nikanon]

I just turned 20 today, and since I was about 17 or 18 I have been a film photographer and seriously interested in the quantum physics and organic chemistry (technical understanding is just as important as the creative concept of an image!). I have studied very old texts from my university for the past year or so regarding photographic theory, coating and making emulsion, emulsion types and processes, as well as many other parts of photographic chemistry and sensitometry. If hand coating anything is what it takes for me to be able to shoot and print, then I will gladly become the 6th or 7th member of that group of 5 or 6. I may be young, but this is my passion, and I wont let a paradigm shift decide what makes me happy.

 

[michaelbsc]

Nikanon,

Happy Birthday!

Michael

 

[ntenny]

Nathan;

You are totally off the mark. Sorry.

Thanks for the clarification. It was an honest question---I didn't mean to sound like I presumed the answer was one way or another.

E6 products are lower at EK than C41 products in terms of consumption, but not in production.

I'm not sure I understand this part. There isn't a huge warehouse full of E-6 that's been produced but not consumed, is there? Or are the slide products done in a large run that then goes out to market in a slow trickle (and what happens in between runs---is the machinery idled, or is it partly the same machinery that does C-41)?

-NT

 

[Steve Smith]

Look, you guys talk a lot but have little real interest or there would be more people willing and able to make hand coatings and some would be interested in system engineering. I can count on one hand, people REALLY interested in this. Most others vanish when the going gets tough. The proof of this is that out of the entire membership of APUG only about 5 people are actually making coatings on their own!

When it takes me a week to come up with a long post on this, for just 5 people, is that worth it? It is easy to give glib answers, but hard to stick it out and finish a hard read of what is needed to make a film or paper.

Sorry for the rant!

Whilst I can understand your feelings on this the fact is that your posts on emulsion making are of great interest to those of us who probably will not do it themselves but also may inspire others to do something which they wouldn't have considered before.

I'm no organic chemist (or any type of chemist) but I do have engineering and manufacturing skills and I know that if I needed to I could build small scale pieces of equipment such as an emulsion coating machine.

Again, the likelyhood of me actually building something like this is fairly low but others in a similar position may actually get interested and do it.

It may be that those of us with those skills but who are reluctant to actually take it a step further may only change our minds and do something when it is necessary to do it. Not the ideal situation but probably a reasonable assumption on reality.


Steve.

 

[railwayman3]

I'd go along with Steve Smith ^^^ on this....I also get much pleasure and interest in reading many threads on APUG which are not directly relevant to my own photographic interests and activities, and may never be. Sometimes they do give me new ideas and schemes, but at the very worst it's more stimulating than watching TV or playing computer games!

At the moment, I have no real plans (or time) for emulsion making, but will be buying PE's book...likewise I particularly enjoy reading about alternative processes,
but no time or facilities to pursue these right now. Hopefully some day (when I retire from a very busy job?), I may be able to follow these up.