8x10 Saltzman Enlarger Problems

[StoneNYC]

So, I have an 8x10 Saltzman enlarger I've been trying to get up and running for some time now. Life has gotten in the way but suffice to say slowly but surely I've been getting close but have a few snags.

The two big problems are...

1). The head drifts and doesn't lock properly.

2). The light doesn't seem evenly distributed.

Back to part 1). I THINK I'm missing a part of the locking mechanism. There are two smaller knobs in the middle of the larger adjustment knobs that seem to be for locking down, however I suspect something like on an Avenger/C-Stand has that probably back in the 1930's might have been maybe a leather disk? But I'm not entirely sure and I need someone who owns one to show me pictures of their knobs EDIT: or rather BEHIND he knobs that might go between the front knob and secondary knob or possibly behind the second larger knob END EDIT: and the so I can figure out what I'm missing on mine. Maybe even a skype session to figure it out if that's an option?

And 2). I THINK there must have been a set of diffusion filters or something that helped spread the light out more evenly. It IS a condenser enlarger, so in theory shouldn't need one, but perhaps because the exposure area is so big something else was needed to spread the light?

Pictires, I'm not home now but I have a picture of the handles to show at least kind of what I'm talking about.

And then the light problem...

As you can see it's in the center, the bulb itself moves closer and farther from the mirror that reflects down to the condenser lens, but it doesn't pull back far enough so I know there must be an additional mechanism I'm missing.

Inside the light housing there is what appears to be 3 slots that SOMETHING must go in. I don't know if this is simply for color printing? Or for diffusion panels? I'm pretty sure they didn't have multigrade papers then, so I'm guessing it's a filter diffusion system but I need to know more to get it done correctly so if anyone has spare parts or even just an example I could see, that would be tremendously helpful!

Inside pictures... (ignore that the light isn't perfectly fixed inside)

And the 3 slots next to the mirror

So any advice or help from anyone who has owned or does own one of these would be appreciated.

I know there's the "catalogue" but I've yet to come across an instruction manual or an actual design schematic / patent guide / builder/installers manual for this. That would be fantastic!

I know not many people have them, so I'm hoping to find someone on here who does. I'd prefer to keep the speculations to a minimum and get feedback from those who have these amazing units.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Ronald Moravec]

#2 Socket needs to go into aluminum block. Block is made to go up & down so as to get even light distribution. Use something to loosen probable rust.

#1 can not help Look to see how other wheel is secured.
Ask on large format forum

 

[StoneNYC]

#2 Socket needs to go into aluminum block. Block is made to go up & down so as to get even light distribution. Use something to loosen probable rust.

#1 can not help Look to see how other wheel is secured.
Ask on large format forum

Thanks Ronald.

As far as #2, the bulb does go forward and backward as you said, however it is at its farthest rear positions and still doesn't have a broad enough spread. I know it needs to be fixed in, there's no rust, but as it is in the picture it's actually farther back than it would be if it were inserted properly into the block in a fixed way. So there must be an additional "light spreading device" I'm thinking?

#1 Unfortunately I can't ask there, last year there was a disagreement on the treatment of photos of non-traditionally-gendered people and in being an ally for them, I mistakenly spoke too strongly about my position toward the moderators and I was removed. We sometimes get too reactive when speaking in defense of others and speak out of turn.

I have apologized for my strong tone and made a request for reinstatement, however I haven't heard any official word on that yet.

Anyone else have any knowledge? Is Jac on here? Or anyone else?

 

[Lachlan Young]

Have you tried Glenn Evans of glennview.com? He's one of the few people I can think of who sells Saltzman stuff.

Disclaimer: I've not got experience with Saltzman enlargers (wrong side of the pond) but I'd not be surprised if there are considerable similarities to DeVere's counterweighted head system - though without the modular drop bed.

Certainly the 'drift' you describe does not sound a million miles away from what a worn 504 DeVere can be like - I'll have a closer look at the locking system on the 504 & see if there's anything that might help you there.

How many condensers do you have with the machine? If it's like the Varicon DeVere there should be a pair (not one) in the light path at all times which you switch round for different sizes of neg - I'm wondering if there's ones that go in the slots before the mirror? Can see why they folded the light path - the Varicon head adds a good chunk of height to a 504, especially when up at the top of the column.

The good news is that most big enlargers are surprisingly similar, the bad is that they're often weirdly different, each with its own (shrinking) knowledge base...

 

[StoneNYC]

Have you tried Glenn Evans of glennview.com? He's one of the few people I can think of who sells Saltzman stuff.

Disclaimer: I've not got experience with Saltzman enlargers (wrong side of the pond) but I'd not be surprised if there are considerable similarities to DeVere's counterweighted head system - though without the modular drop bed.

Certainly the 'drift' you describe does not sound a million miles away from what a worn 504 DeVere can be like - I'll have a closer look at the locking system on the 504 & see if there's anything that might help you there.

How many condensers do you have with the machine? If it's like the Varicon DeVere there should be a pair (not one) in the light path at all times which you switch round for different sizes of neg - I'm wondering if there's ones that go in the slots before the mirror? Can see why they folded the light path - the Varicon head adds a good chunk of height to a 504, especially when up at the top of the column.

The good news is that most big enlargers are surprisingly similar, the bad is that they're often weirdly different, each with its own (shrinking) knowledge base...

Glenview is a great idea! Thanks I'll reach out.

I think the weights are correct it's a slow drift, there might have been a spring that I'm missing? But I suspect it's just the locking mechanism isn't in right/missing 1 vital (and not entirely obvious) piece.

Yea the thing is already 10+ feet tall...

2 condenser lenses, the moving bulb replaces the moving condenser positions since the lens is so massive/heavy.

if you can contact Randy Moe, he may have information and excess equipment - I heard he had to sell and move. Rumored to have a horizontal version

Not sure if he is on this forum, I knew him on LFF. Thanks!

 

[choiliefan]

There's currently an 8X10 Saltzman for sale on ebay. Perhaps the seller knows something about the inner workings and is able to help...? Best wishes,

 

[Lachlan Young]

I think the weights are correct it's a slow drift, there might have been a spring that I'm missing? But I suspect it's just the locking mechanism isn't in right/missing 1 vital (and not entirely obvious) piece.

Yea the thing is already 10+ feet tall...

2 condenser lenses, the moving bulb replaces the moving condenser positions since the lens is so massive/heavy.

Yeah - sounds slightly different to the DeVere wear issue - in that case, when you take your hand off the focus knob without simultaneously locking it down, the focus stage will shift fractionally & knock it out of focus.

I'd also do all I could to get a diffusion head that fits the Saltzman - but that's my own taste & experience with the DeVere Varicon head speaking... Didn't Saltzman make a mercury vapour/ cold cathode head? Would probably be a good candidate for building an additive RGB LED source into.

 

[StoneNYC]

Yeah - sounds slightly different to the DeVere wear issue - in that case, when you take your hand off the focus knob without simultaneously locking it down, the focus stage will shift fractionally & knock it out of focus.

I'd also do all I could to get a diffusion head that fits the Saltzman - but that's my own taste & experience with the DeVere Varicon head speaking... Didn't Saltzman make a mercury vapour/ cold cathode head? Would probably be a good candidate for building an additive RGB LED source into.

Yea, the mercurry head would be great if I could find one, but a lot of people threw them out, same with the condenser lens head. I have a broken .... blanking on the name... the popular square heads that have florescent bulbs running through them in a zig zag pattern... but even the bulb replacement is $800 or something. So, out of my budget range. This enlarger was free... so.... my budget is small.

Thanks

There's currently an 8X10 Saltzman for sale on ebay. Perhaps the seller knows something about the inner workings and is able to help...? Best wishes,

I hadn't done a search, thanks I'll ask

 

[ic-racer]

Are you following the basics from the manual?
You have the 14" condensers and they are in the correct orientation?
Bulb is #302 or same size or larger substitute?
Lens is 300mm or 12" at f22 or smaller?

 

[Lachlan Young]

Yea, the mercurry head would be great if I could find one, but a lot of people threw them out, same with the condenser lens head. I have a broken .... blanking on the name... the popular square heads that have florescent bulbs running through them in a zig zag pattern... but even the bulb replacement is $800 or something. So, out of my budget range. This enlarger was free... so.... my budget is small.

Aristo, I'd guess - though most cold cathodes fit that description - DeVere's Cathomag looks similarly box-like.

Really a question of how much you want/ need to invest into the machine right now vis-a-vis how long that'll take to pay off &/or if it's crucial to your 'process' as a photographer. I've been looking at building my own version of Beseler's 810 conversion on to a 45CB7 with a Heiland LED head - and it adds up to more than a DeVere 5108 as things currently stand...

Best of luck etc - will get back to you once I've had a proper look at the DeVere - either way, I doubt the problem is complicated to solve - it just looks that way!

 

[John Koehrer]

FWIW. when you get an explanation about the lock, if you can't find
leather can try a fiber washer. Those you can find at the hardware store.

 

[ic-racer]

If you have overlooked one of the items in my post #10 you are likely to be better off with what you have than an Aristo head. This was a print with no negative from my Aristo 1414 before I added a center filter:

 

[StoneNYC]

Are you following the basics from the manual?
You have the 14" condensers and they are in the correct orientation?
Bulb is #302 or same size or larger substitute?
Lens is 300mm or 12" at f22 or smaller?

I've never seen a manual for this enlarger, do you have one? That would be fantastic! As I said in my original post I would love to have a operational manual or assembly instruction manual, but the only thing I've EVER seen was the buying advertisement catalogue. Do you have a manual?

Yes the Condensers are in a fixed housing, you can't adjust them, the both face inward toward each other (as in the convex faces the other convex and the top and bottom of the entire assembled piece is flat on the top and bottom because the convex portions are facing each other inside the housing), that's how they came and AFAIK they don't go in any direction but the one they are fixed in.

The bulb is an equivalent, the only thing different is the stem circumference (which is skinnier as you can see) but I'll be adding a secondary collar, it's just that this is asbestos lined and I have to tackle that carefully for obvious reasons.

Lens is a 240mm. I do have a 300mm but I was told the modern 240mm lenses would be just fine because they have a wider coverage. Mounting the 240mm was difficult enough, I'm not sure I can mount the 300mm easily, I'll have to take it to a tooler (SK Grimes?) to get it mounted, I also only have a few lens boards, so I have to be careful. But AFAIK I should still be able to use the 240mm? It's an EL-Nikkor 240mm which should cover just fine from specs (and what others have said on the forum). I'm open to understanding why that might not work, but if it covers, it shouldn't matter, if the light isn't covering the full 8x10 surface of the actual negative.

I'm confused about the f/22 or smaller comment. I've always printed only 2 stops smaller than wide open. This has produced the sharpest prints with the least amount of exposure time, any smaller and I'll hit reticulation as well as EXTREMELY long print times. I would never think of doing f/22 unless I were using some tilts to fix a perspective / lines / angles in the image. On top of that, when I'm focussing I have the lens wide open and it always covers the full image evenly just fine, so, what am I missing?

Aristo, I'd guess - though most cold cathodes fit that description - DeVere's Cathomag looks similarly box-like.

Really a question of how much you want/ need to invest into the machine right now vis-a-vis how long that'll take to pay off &/or if it's crucial to your 'process' as a photographer. I've been looking at building my own version of Beseler's 810 conversion on to a 45CB7 with a Heiland LED head - and it adds up to more than a DeVere 5108 as things currently stand...

Best of luck etc - will get back to you once I've had a proper look at the DeVere - either way, I doubt the problem is complicated to solve - it just looks that way!

Thanks, yea Aristo! I don't know why I was blanking on that hah! And you hit the nail on the head. I've spent less than $500 on my darkroom so far and most of that was in 20x24 trays bought new from B&H and the EL-Nikkor lens lineup I acquired when I saw good deals. I'm hoping to make this work, but I may end up picking up an 8x10 color head. We shall see.

FWIW. when you get an explanation about the lock, if you can't find
leather can try a fiber washer. Those you can find at the hardware store.

That's a great idea! I'll have to get one from a specialty place, Home Depot doesn't carry any quite as large as the linkage on this thing, but thank's for saying that, not sure why I hadn't thought of that before, that's what they use on my 8x10 and 4x5 on the locking knobs. Thanks!

If you have overlooked one of the items in my post #10 you are likely to be better off with what you have than an Aristo head. This was a print with no negative from my Aristo 1414 before I added a center filter:

Hmm... Perhaps it's not a diffusion filter that go in the slots, but a special Center Filter, gah, I wish someone had one of these to let me know. Sigh. Again, you've mentioned the manual, if you have the manual PLEASE send the PDF my way. This thing is from the 1930's so... I'm not sure any still exist...

 

[ic-racer]

Lens is a 240mm.

I'll explain with analogy. Imagine the condensers focus the light to the lens. So your 240mm lens, when focused on the negative correctly for a given enlargement, will not be in the same position as the 300mm lens. Therefore you need a different condenser combination, which does not exist.
Sorry, the MANUAL I refer to is the extensive brochure that I believe you already have. You need to read every sentence and infer what they mean.

For example ( from the last page at the bottom small print)

A 12" lens must be used with pair of 14" condensers for enlarging.

In terms of using the slots for diffusion sheets, I'd try it but the manual always refers to "diffusion sources" as other than the condenser. My reading is the condenser head is "flexible" because it can do point-source and opal lamp.

I'm confused about the f/22 or smaller comment.

All enlarging lenses with wide focusing apertures have a horrible hot-spot unless stopped down.

For example the lowest green solid line is a lens "short for the format" at high magnification wide open. The top dotted red line is a lens "equal to diagonal" used at small magnification and stopped down 3 stops. Still showing less than 80% illumination at the corners.

You won't see the effects, in prints, of diffraction, with your 8x10 enlargements until f64.
My usual aperture for 8x10 enlarging is f32.

 

[StoneNYC]

I'll explain with analogy. Imagine the condensers focus the light to the lens. So your 240mm lens, when focused on the negative correctly for a given enlargement, will not be in the same position as the 300mm lens. Therefore you need a different condenser combination, which does not exist.
Sorry, the MANUAL I refer to is the extensive brochure that I believe you already have. You need to read every sentence and infer what they mean.

For example ( from the last page at the bottom small print)


In terms of using the slots for diffusion sheets, I'd try it but the manual always refers to "diffusion sources" as other than the condenser. My reading is the condenser head is "flexible" because it can do point-source and opal lamp.



All enlarging lenses with wide focusing apertures have a horrible hot-spot unless stopped down.

For example the lowest green solid line is a lens "short for the format" at high magnification wide open. The top dotted red line is a lens "equal to diagonal" used at small magnification and stopped down 3 stops. Still showing less than 80% illumination at the corners.

You won't see the effects, in prints, of diffraction, with your 8x10 enlargements until f64.
My usual aperture for 8x10 enlarging is f32.

UGH... I wrote a wrong reply and then by the time I hit "submit" APUG was "down for scheduled maintenance" and I lost it all...

I don't have time this morning except to say I figured some stuff out last night as I spent a lot of time, the substitute bulb that was in there was just slightly smaller in diameter than the original bulb, and the also had a much longer neck/stem so it wasn't far enough back. The second option substitute was much shorter and almost eliminated the problem, the actual original bulb seems almost completely even to the point I'm not so worried. The 300mm is still probably going to be my go-to lens, I'm going to see if someone in the manufacturing section of the community college can fabricate more lens boards and/or at least drill mine.

ALSO everything you said made sense.

I agree with ic-racer that the lens is too short for the condenser combination. The Durst enlargers give different combinations based on focal length, and I once had a Beseler enlarger that had different condenser positions for 135mm and 150mm lenses. If your condensers are fixed in place, you need a specific focal length. If the manual/ad pamphlet says 12 inch, get a 12 inch.

My De Vere 5108 has a diffusion color head with a different 8x10 diffusion box for 300mm lenses than for 240mm. The diffusion panels are thicker in the center than the corners to even out fall off. The panels for each size lens takes into account the amount of fall off they produce.

Thanks, I'm still hoping to figure out what the slots are for. I can easily see it being a center filter of some kind. Who knows... hopefully someone! lol.