6x9 camera with Pre-Tessar lens?

I doubt if the camera I am looking for actually exists, but maybe someone knows of something similar?

I would like to get a medium format camera, preferably 6x9 (6x7, 6x8 OK, but not square). And I want to make photos with a "vintage look" (sorry, I hate the vagueness of that). That is, I want something with more definition and clarity than the typically blurry medium format pinhole image, but something more dreamy and with softer corners than what a typical modern lens design produces. I have a Rolleicord and several 35mm SLRs for when I want a more normal look. My film will be mostly b&w.

So I think I want a camera with a pre-Tessar lens design — either a simple meniscus, meniscus achromat, rapid rectilinear, or Cooke triplet lens(?) And not too wide, something with a focal length in the range of 80-110mL.

Pretty sure I want to stick with 120 film, and I don't want to mess with trying to shoot 120 film in a camera designed for 616, 620, etc.

I just got an < Agfa Clack > and I think it might be roughly the type of camera I'm looking for — but mine has problems, so I've not been able to shoot film in it yet. (I do have a second Agfa Clack on order, advertised as "tested and working") But already, I am wishing for more control over exposure, framing and focus than what the Agfa Clack offers. The single shutter speed on the Clack is slower than optimal for me (1/30th sec.?), and it has only one or two apertures.

So my question is: Are there any box-type* cameras which offer more shutter speeds, apertures, and/or focusing options? Or am I going to have to go to a folding 6x9 camera to get more control?

I am a little reluctant to go with a 6x9 folding camera because I'm afraid the lenses on some of those are going to be too good to produce the look I want. But maybe there are some that will make the kind of images I am looking for? The 6x9 folders also look somewhat complex and fragile, so I'm afraid it might be difficlut to find one in working condition?

* edit: "box-type" is not really a condition, and is probably too restrictive a term; maybe "point-and-shoot" is what I'm looking for? Anyway, I care less about the style of the camera than I do about the results.

Off hand I don't know of any box type that are 6x9 but there are many different folders that offer 6x9 and the tessar lens and they are all pretty robust so no worries about fragility as long as you don't abuse them. Zeiss, Voigtlander, even the Russian Moskva are all sturdy cameras with nice lenses. The tessar will give you great images, with sharp center and slightly soft corners, just the look you are going for. You should try to find a copy that has recently been CLA'd and has either a new bellows or a still supple but unworn bellows. A good bet is to get one from or serviced by Certo6. The price range from under $100 for something unknown to around $200-300 for a serviced camera. If you dont mind estimating the distance, one without a coupled rangefinder will be the best buy. Good luck, Bob.

Oops, edit... I thought you were looking at a Tessar lens, not a pre-tessar. There are still those same folding cameras with 3 element lenses, and they are also robust but because they are earlier models will likely not have rangefinders. And they will also likely not have been CLA'd. People hesitate to spend money on a CLA for 3 element cameras. The Tessar models will give you nearly the same picture effects though, and are more common, IMO.
One folding camera that fits your description and is robust is the Voigtlander Bessa I with the 3 element Voigtar lens.

I have one of the cheapest, early versions of the Voigtlander Bessa with am f3.5 Skopar lens (not the Color Skopar) and used wide open it's a very soft, dreamy lens. Is this the kind of "vintage look" you're after?

Get a 2x3 Graphic, a 2x3 roll holder, and put any old lens that interests you on it.

Or look for a #1 Cartridge Folding Pocket Kodak. "Cartridge" is old Kodak-speak for roll film.

retina_restoration said:

I have one of the cheapest, early versions of the Voigtlander Bessa with am f3.5 Skopar lens (not the Color Skopar) and used wide open it's a very soft, dreamy lens. Is this the kind of "vintage look" you're after?

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Um, er, ah, I believe -- could be mistaken -- that Skopars are Tessar types.

There are a lot of older folding 6x9's that use single or doublets, the main issue is they are a lot older than the ones with triplets or tessar lenses, so bellows integrity will be questionable. But those older folders often came with simple self-charging shutters that often just keep working. I use to have a box full of them, there was a time you could pick them up at swap meets.

runswithsizzers said:

So my question is: Are there any box-type cameras which offer more shutter speeds, apertures, and/or focusing options? Or am I going to have to go to a folding 6x9 camera to get more control?

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The Goerz, and later Zeiss Ikon, Box Tengor, has a Goerz Frontar achromat lens, three apertures and three distance settings (low power diopter lenses that swing in front of the lens). One of the best box cameras, and they don't cost much.

There are Kodak Monitors and Tourists with three element lenses. But they are folders, and possibly of a higher sharpness than you want. And you'd need to respool to 620 .

@retina_restoration mentioned the Bessa with Skopar, which is a Tessar type, but there is also the triplet Voigtar on many early Bessa 6x9.

Goerz Roll-film Tenax 6x9, with the 10 cm Dagor, is an interesting camera. Six element lens with the famous "Dagor glow" at larger apertures, and a Compur shutter with the speed range from 1 sec to 1/250. But it's difficult to find and might have problems with light leaks, zink pest, delamination... The camera can also be found with the four element dialyte Dogmar, but then you're into Tessar-type of sharpness.

A fun alternative for a softer lens: Have you tried the Rolleisoft attachments for your Rolleicord? They are of the Duto-type that was invented by the famous Hungarian photographer Jenö Dulovits:


The Rolleisoft/Duto attachments have thin concentric rings molded into the glass that work like lenses, so they project an out-of-focus image on top of the sharp image, creating a soft dreamy effect that is very pleasing.

I get effects like that using the WA viewing lens on the taking lens of a TLR.

Unsure of the construction of the 105 mm f/ 4.5 Lens on my Voigtlander Prominent 6x9 camera, but it fits the bill for "vintage look".

Found this through sheer, blind luck at a price I couldn't resist; can't imagine paying what the market asks for the camera now...

Kino said:

Unsure of the construction of the 105 mm f/ 4.5 Lens on my Voigtlander Prominent 6x9 camera, but it fits the bill for "vintage look".

Found this through sheer, blind luck at a price I couldn't resist; can't imagine paying what the market asks for the camera now...

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That looks to be a Heliar lens. 5 element, very sharp and wonderful in other ways. No wonder it gives such a nice look.

Dan Daniel said:

That looks to be a Heliar lens. 5 element, very sharp and wonderful in other ways. No wonder it gives such a nice look.

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Thanks Dan for that info. Shows my lens ignorance but I am always happy to learn.

nanthor said:

Off hand I don't know of any box type that are 6x9

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"box-type" is not really a condition, and is probably too restrictive a term; maybe "point-and-shoot" is what I'm looking for? Anyway, I care less about the style of the camera than I do about the results. (I edited my pirst post, accordingly)

nanthor said:

One folding camera that fits your description and is robust is the Voigtlander Bessa I with the 3 element Voigtar lens.

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Thanks, I put that one on my list of possibilities.

retina_restoration said:

I have one of the cheapest, early versions of the Voigtlander Bessa with am f3.5 Skopar lens (not the Color Skopar) and used wide open it's a very soft, dreamy lens. Is this the kind of "vintage look" you're after?

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Maybe. I couldn't tell from looking at your Flickr page if the potted plants was the only photo taken with camera, or also the ones before and after it?

JPD said:

The Goerz, and later Zeiss Ikon, Box Tengor, has a Goerz Frontar achromat lens, three apertures and three distance settings (low power diopter lenses that swing in front of the lens). One of the best box cameras, and they don't cost much.

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Sounds great! The Zeiss Ikon Box Tengor goes to the top of my list. I had come across a reference to the Box Tengor that inspired me to look for one for sale. But searching for only the very cool looking latest model, so far I've only seen one for sale in the USA.

The earliest Rolleicords with uncoated Triotar (triplet) lenses have that vintage glow at wider apertures, have full range of shutter speeds, tiny and light. The Art Deco ones are very pretty too, but the black ones are much cheaper. Never mind, you said 6x9.

JPD said:

A fun alternative for a softer lens: Have you tried the Rolleisoft attachments for your Rolleicord?

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No, the Rolleisoft attachments were not on my radar. Thanks! I will defineitely be looking for it(?) / them(?) -- is there more than one version?

ic-racer said:

I get effects like that using the WA viewing lens on the taking lens of a TLR.

View attachment 416957

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Thanks, @ic-racer, but I'm not sure what I am looking at? Apparently, that is a Yashica brand wide angle viewing lens? Is it available in the Bay 1 mount? And do you have any example photos I could look at?

Typical TLR bayonet I Wide-angle adapters came with a smaller adapter for the upper focusing lens. The focusing adapter is sharp in the center (so one can focus) but the edges are pretty blurry. I think I have an example I can show...

Dan Fromm said:

Um, er, ah, I believe -- could be mistaken -- that Skopars are Tessar types.

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So? Did you LOOK at the photo I made with it?

runswithsizzers said:

Maybe. I couldn't tell from looking at your Flickr page if the potted plants was the only photo taken with camera, or also the ones before and after it?

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That is the only example photo I published using this lens wide open.

retina_restoration said:

So? Did you LOOK at the photo I made with it?

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Yes. Soft. F/4.5 and faster tessar types of that generation are soft wide open. The OP specified that it didn't want tessar types.

To the OP's request, the sad fact is that even old design types are sharp when used as intended. The old-timey look of old prints is due to a combination of print aging (including due to under-fixing), unsharpness of old negative emulsions, exposure (taking) and processing problems, and motion blur.

Although some lenses were designed to give soft focus or "artistic" transitions between sharp and soft, most were designed to be soft. In some cases the designers erred. Skopars are one example. So are Wollensak's tessar types; see what Richard Knoppow wrote about them.

Dan Fromm said:

Yes. Soft. F/4.5 and faster tessar types of that generation are soft wide open. The OP specified that it didn't want tessar types.

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He said “ I think I want a camera with a pre-Tessar lens design”. That is not a statement of absolutes.

retina_restoration said:

He said “ I think I want a camera with a pre-Tessar lens design”. That is not a statement of absolutes.

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Yes. To clarify, I am under the assumption that tessar types MAY produce images that are too "normal" for me -- that is, lacking in the kind of flawed, early-days-of-photography look I have in mind. However, I don't have any actual experience with any cameras which are older than my Rolleicord V -- so my assumption could easily be incorrect.

The image I have in my mind is relatively sharp in the center of the frame, but rolls off to out-of-focus edges. I am not particularly fond of images which are uniformly soft all over. I will try to look for examples to show what I have in mind.

Looking at the one example linked to by @retina_restoration, I can't say for sure, but my first impression was that it is not quite there for me. I would need to see more examples, at diferent subject distances, different apertures, and different lighting before I could say for sure if tessar designs are under consideration, or not.

Dan Daniel said:

There are Kodak Monitors and Tourists with three element lenses. But they are folders, and possibly of a higher sharpness than you want. And you'd need to respool to 620 .

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The bottom feeder Tourist had a singlet, triplet and four elements lens. scale focus. For the simple shutter with the singlet lens you will likely need to stick with ISO 100 and slower such as Pan F, you can tell the simple lens bodies by the shutter. Here is a link. Tourists have been somewhat rare on Shopgoodwill.com When I bought mine over 10 years ago there were many, today none.

JPD said:

The Goerz, and later Zeiss Ikon, Box Tengor, has a Goerz Frontar achromat lens, three apertures and three distance settings (low power diopter lenses that swing in front of the lens). One of the best box cameras, and they don't cost much.

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Yes, and it has the output you're looking for, and it's not a folder. The Kodak No. 1 junior is also near perfect for shots that have the turn of the century look.