670nm red bulbs for sleep therapy as safelights?

[What About Bob]

Recently I bought a few of these type of bulbs to see if they would help out with sleep. They are Neperal brand bulbs at 7 watts, 60 watt equivalent, that screw into a standard socket. I don't have any paper materials to test for but I was curious if anyone ever tried using 670nm deep red bulbs as safelights? Seems to me like they should work being that they are further down the visible spectrum of red. Claim to have no blue and green spectrum at all.

I noticed that if I am at a certain distance with these lights I do get this sensation that is sort of off-putting, uneasiness feeling. What I find interesting is that this sensation is closely identical to the feeling I had when I tried a melatonin tab from CVS years ago.

I never experienced any negative effects with red and amber safelights in all of my time when I printed but these red bulbs do have an effect. My guess is that the sensation might be dependent on distance and time of exposure to these therapy bulbs. At a slightly farther distance these 670nm lights are kind of calming and moody and I don't get that uneasy sensation.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

If you have a CD/DVD, you can do a test that doesn't require photographic paper.

 

[Klaus_H]

I am using dimmable LED stipes with 670 nm red light in my darkroom. They are compatible with photo papers from FOMA and Ilford.

 

[koraks]

I've been using ca. 660nm red for safelights for years now. I don't notice anything particular about them, except of course that the human eye is relatively insensitive to these wavelengths so you need more power than for shorter wavelengths to get the same visibility. However, as @Klaus_H also indicates, red is compatible with Foma papers, and at low intensity will also work with e.g. green-sensitive x-ray film.

I don't know about the melatonin parallel; I think it's a little far-fetched to be honest, but I do agree that working under (red) safelights can be sort of soothing in a way. But I've never noticed a distinct difference in this regard between e.g. 625nm red and 660nm red - except that the latter is darker at the same wattage, due to human spectral sensitivity.

 

[thinkbrown]

I've also had good luck with 660nm leds and can run them pretty dang bright compared to a traditional safelight. I did experiment with a 730nm near IR light as well but unfortunately while the human eye can see that wavelength it's very insensitive to it so the amount of wattage you have to pump into it to get a usable safelight makes it prone to fogging materials.

 

[What About Bob]

@Raghu Kuvempunagar: I didn't notice any blue/green or any other color banding with the CD test. All was clear red reflected off from the CD's surface. Pretty cool test, or warm. It's good to see that others have success with these type of lights.

@Klaus_H: Strip lights sound good. Kentmere should fall into being workable as well with these lights.

@koraks: Intensity is something I would need to play with. This brand bulb isn't dimmable. Next time around I will look into some dimmable ones.

I left the red light on for the first night and while I did fall asleep I think it was more on account of the working out that I did at the gym, hours ago.

@thinkbrown: Would you know the wattage for a 730nm light before it started fogging materials and how was visibility?

Thanks, everyone.

 

[thinkbrown]

@thinkbrown: Would you know the wattage for a 730nm light before it started fogging materials and how was visibility?

I ran tests with both the 730nm and the 660nm strips I'm using off a 700ma power supply which comes in around 16w. the 730nm unit needed to be directly overhead to provide any sort of useful light which caused fog issues pretty rapidly. The 660nm almost immediately fogged materials at the same distance but was insanely bright. I currently use it mounted to the ceiling about 8ft away and have good workable lighting.

I'm gonna estimate that the 660nm light is perceptually about 10x brighter, but they both look pretty similar through the infrared capable camera I have in my darkroom.

 

[koraks]

Spectral sensitivity of human cone cells. Note there's virtually no sensitivity beyond 700nm, and around 650 things are already marginal. This is to illustrate what I said before and that confirms also what @thinkbrown says above, i.e. that you need a truckload more power at longer wavelengths for the same apparent intensity if you go from standard LED red 620nm to 660 and beyond.

The main issue with 620nm red LEDs in my experience is that many of them emit green and yellow light as well. Although this is proportionally marginal in quantity, because it sits in the sensitive region of the paper, it does constitute a fogging issue. It can to an extent be filtered out with a red filter, but this isn't perfect in my experience. Testing is needed to determine safe intensity limits.

The long & short of it is that there's usually a tradeoff and either a longer wavelength (deep red 660nm) or a shorter one (standard 620) can work, but both do require testing to determine how much exposure the paper can safely handle. Keep in mind the paper itself matters a lot, too.

W.r.t. psychological effects I really wouldn't know; all I know is that the absence of bluye makes a difference.

 

[loccdor]

If I need a particularly sound sleep I pop a melatonin gummy directly and I'm usually out within 30 minutes. The most common cause of early waking, at least for myself, is having a beer too close to bedtime. Melatonin at reasonable doses is very safe and without many side effects compared to other sleep aids, and it's also a powerful antioxidant.

 

[What About Bob]

@thinkbrown, @koraks: Thank you both for the information. At some point I will do some testing when I get paper.

I also noticed on the side of the bulb there is mention of 85V-265V? Variable voltage? The spec sheet says 110V.

@Raghu Kuvempunagar: That Rubylith stuff from the page link is something I'll be looking into.

@loccdor: I might give the melatonin stuff a retry. I'll look around for the gummy version. The CVS brand were itty-bitty-pills.

 

[Alan Townsend]

Recently I bought a few of these type of bulbs to see if they would help out with sleep. They are Neperal brand bulbs at 7 watts, 60 watt equivalent, that screw into a standard socket.

I use red led bulbs in my darkroom and like them. Don't know their frequency though. With red light, our eye pupil dilation mechanism doesn't stop our pupils down like other colors, so our eyes go full aperture regardless of intensity. This is why red lights are used on aircraft instrument panels and amature astronomers gear to not reduce night vision. Mine don't fog fuji hru green xray film with indirect use, but have fogged VC enlarging paper, so must have some yellow.

When I was in college in 1972 they had those low pressure sodium safelights that are monochromatic amber. Anybody remember those? It was bright enough to read the newspaper in the darkroom. I really hated those, made it very hard to focus the enlargers but safe for VC papers.

 

[MCB18]

I use a Feit clear red LED, at some point I found the frequency and it was around 650nm. At 8 feet away pointed at the ceiling it works great

 

[mshchem]

Low pressure sodium vapor safe lights. Thomas duplex super safelight. Monochromatic light 589nm.

Sodium-vapor lamp - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[koraks]

Low pressure sodium vapor safe lights. Thomas duplex super safelight. Monochromatic light 589nm.

Sodium-vapor lamp - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These will fog Fomabrom & Fomaspeed papers.

 

[MCB18]

Low pressure sodium vapor safe lights. Thomas duplex super safelight. Monochromatic light 589nm.

Sodium-vapor lamp - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

These are no longer in production so they are extremely difficult to get hold of now

 

[mshchem]

These are no longer in production so they are extremely difficult to get hold of now

I have extra bulbs for my Thomas safelights. They last forever, and I've had no problem finding replacements on ebay. Trick for any of these solutions is, find a wavelength that your eyes like, the paper likes and most importantly give your eyes at least 20 minutes to let your dark vision do it's thing!

 

[mshchem]

These will fog Fomabrom & Fomaspeed papers.

Not when you use behind filters in a Thomas safelight, vanes set to proper opening using the correct power bulb. These safelights were/are used everywhere in the US. I have 4 hanging in my darkroom, I turn on the appropriate one, never use all at once. Like any photographic process it's about sensitivity of the paper, and, power/intensity of the source

 

[koraks]

Not when you use behind filters in a Thomas safelight

Have you specifically tested this with the papers I used, and what safelight exposure times proved to be safe with no effect also on contrast?
I'm asking because problems with orange and yellow safelights on Fomabrom & Fomaspeed are very common. This is because the paper has an extended sensitivity range beyond what was (and still is) common for both graded and VC papers. So the fact that the safelight has been used all the time for decades really doesn't say anything. The same is true for Kodak OC filters and these WILL fog these papers.

Like any photographic process it's about sensitivity of the paper, and, power/intensity of the source

You're forgetting wavelength. It's important here.

 

[pentaxuser]

When I was in college in 1972 they had those low pressure sodium safelights that are monochromatic amber. Anybody remember those? It was bright enough to read the newspaper in the darkroom. I really hated those, made it very hard to focus the enlargers but safe for VC papers.

Only safe for some kinds of VC papers, it appears, from what koraks has said and I imagine that "bright enough to read the newspaper" is likely to be contested as well unless your reference is to only the articles' headlines rather than what is usually referred to the print size for words in the articles

pentaxuser

 

[mshchem]

Have you specifically tested this with the papers I used, and what safelight exposure times proved to be safe with no effect also on contrast?
I'm asking because problems with orange and yellow safelights on Fomabrom & Fomaspeed are very common. This is because the paper has an extended sensitivity range beyond what was (and still is) common for both graded and VC papers. So the fact that the safelight has been used all the time for decades really doesn't say anything. The same is true for Kodak OC filters and these WILL fog these papers.


You're forgetting wavelength. It's important here.

Already specified wavelength 589nm and since it's from atomic emission of sodium at low pressure it's a very monochromatic single emission line. I've used these with every paper. When I'm feeling a bit risky have used with color filters, the duc filter for color printing. These fog color paper no doubt, but if you give your eyes 20 minutes to develop your dark vision, work quickly, not too close to the safelight you can get away with it.

These safelights are dinosaurs, find an led that works for you, easy. Just say'in.

 

[mshchem]

Foma says anything indirect 575nm or longer OK

 

[Klaus_H]

FOMA also says:
FOMATONE MG: 610 nm and higher
FOMABROM Variant: 625 nm and higher

 

[koraks]

Indeed, what @Klaus_H says:

Fomabrom Variant II:

Safelighting
FOMABROM VARIANT III is orthochromatic sensibilized photo paper so if you work
with it you should use safety illumination different from common black and white
photo paper. It is routinely processed at indirect safety illumination with wavelength
of 625 nm and higher, corresponding colour of safety illumination is orange or red.
As to its high sensitivity the processed material has to be exposed to such
illumination only for the time necessary for its processing. Length of exposure and a
distance of the processed material from the illumination source should be tested.

Fomaspeed Variant III:

Safelighting
FOMASPEED VARIANT III is an ortochromatically sensitized photographic paper.
Therefore, a suitable safelighting differing from that for conventional photographic
papers should be used. Dark-red safelight filters for orthochromatic materials, e.g.
Kodak GBX-2, Ilford 906, Agfa R1, Osram Duka 50 etc. in connection with a 15 Watt
lamp are fully suitable. More comfortable and user friendlier light sources may be
used with orange LED diodes, eventually orange filters however with a s afe wave
length band pass over 610 nm. Because of its high speed, FOMASPEED VARIANT
III should be exposed to this safelighting only for a time prerequisite to handling.

Fomatone MG:

Safelighting
FOMATONE MG Classic is routinely processed at indirect safety illumination with
wavelength of 610 nm and higher, corresponding colour of safety illumination is
orange. Regarding its low sensitivity the processed material can be exposed to such
and/or another adequate type of safety illumination for longer period than common
types of black and white papers (Fomabrom, Fomaspeed, etc.)

Interesting to note is that Foma's information in the Fomaspeed quote above is somewhat inconsistent, since they list e.g. the Osram Duka 50 as safe, while this uses a low-pressure sodium bulb and thus will emit light at the characteristic 590nm peak. Orange LEDs are also mentioned, but these can be had in a variety of wavelengths, so a suitable type would have to be selected and additional filtering may (will) be necessary.

Fomaspeed and Fomabrom fog quite readily (first-hand experience) and additional filtering of light sources (regardless of color) and testing of contrast loss in low densities (high values) is required to determine the safe window for safelight exposure.

Foma says anything indirect 575nm or longer OK

I don't know a reference that says so, but it's at odds with the snippets from the datasheets above.
Foma sells a safelight which is spec-ed at 630nm, which is orange-red.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Although the low pressure sodium lamps are no longer made, you can buy LED bulbs (regular medium screw base, 110V) that emit 590 nm -- they're sold as "turtle safe" or "wildlife safe" and are pretty monochromatic. They will, however, fog anything that can't take a Thomas Duplex.

 

[mshchem]

Indeed, what @Klaus_H says:

Fomabrom Variant II:


Fomaspeed Variant III:


Fomatone MG:


Interesting to note is that Foma's information in the Fomaspeed quote above is somewhat inconsistent, since they list e.g. the Osram Duka 50 as safe, while this uses a low-pressure sodium bulb and thus will emit light at the characteristic 590nm peak. Orange LEDs are also mentioned, but these can be had in a variety of wavelengths, so a suitable type would have to be selected and additional filtering may (will) be necessary.

Fomaspeed and Fomabrom fog quite readily (first-hand experience) and additional filtering of light sources (regardless of color) and testing of contrast loss in low densities (high values) is required to determine the safe window for safelight exposure.


I don't know a reference that says so, but it's at odds with the snippets from the datasheets above.
Foma sells a safelight which is spec-ed at 630nm, which is orange-red.

This is from Foma tech document on Foma website
Safelighting
FOMABROM is routinely processed at indirect safety illumination with wavelength of
575 nm and higher, corresponding colour of safety illumination is yellow, yellow-green,
amber or orange colours are recommended. Regarding its high sensitivity the
processed material has to be exposed to such illumination only for the time necessary
for its processing. Length of exposure and a distance of the processed material from
the illumination source should be tested. Direct light has to be diffused by inserting mat
glass.
Processing
FOMABROM can be processed both

https://www.foma.cz/en/fomabrom