65mm or 75mm Lens for 4x5?

[brent8927]

I'm looking into buying a new (well... used) wide angle lens. I do mostly architectural photography and I can't always back up far enough for my 90mm (when inside) or when outside, things like trees might be in the way.

My first impression was the 65mm would be better because it would get me closer, but then I looked up that the Nikkor, Rodenstock, and Schneider and lenses only allow about 20mm of movement when the film is positioned horizontally; when it's vertical it looks like just about no rise/fall is possible without vignetting.

That made the 75mm lens sould like a better candidate, it's wider, but it gives me more movement.

I do realaize the Schneider 72mm SA-XL is by far the best solution, as far as being slightly wider than 75mm and having a large enough image circle for a 5x7, but it's too expensive new, and I cannot find a used one.

What would some of you architectural photographers recommend? My camera is not a limiting factor, unless I get a lens shorter than 65mm. Basically it sounds like I need to choose between a wider lens, or being able to get movements. I would personally rather have room for movements, but is the 75mm noticeably that much wider than a 90mm? Is it really worth the money (keeping in mind I'm a poor college student!)

If it makes a difference, architecture is just my primary subject, but not the only one. I also do landscapes, close-ups... and anything else that looks good!

 

[chuck94022]

How about keeping the lens you've got and upgrading the camera to 8x10?

 

[jd callow]

I have only used the Nikkors a 65 sw and the 75 sw. I own the 75 sw. I can wholeheartedly recommend both.

Depending on your needs and the direction you plan on going could determine the choice. If this is the widest lens you plan on buying then get the 65mm (90mm, 150mm, 210mm would seem a natural progression). If you are like me and see your self going wider at some point the 75mm might be better (38mm xl [for 6x12], 58 mm xl -- is my plan I have the 58mm)

I work with a man who has both nikkor 65mm and the 72mm xl. The 72mm seldom gets used (if it were mine it would). The filter ring is huge as is the lens making it less accessible.

 

[jd callow]

Oops forgot...

A 90mm and 75mm are noticeably different (probably similar to 21mm and 28mm). The difference between a 65mm and 75mm is pretty slim. Movements are not as big a deal with wide angles as they are with longer lenses. The dof is larger and being wa they generally require less rise, fall and shift.

 

[Frank Petronio]

I end up thinking of these lenses as last ditch rescue lenses rather than the lens from which I'll do my best work. Whenever I see really wide 4x5 architectural shots I get bummed looking at the forced, fun house mirror pictures, and I get the feeling that the client is trying to get everything in - and not focusing on the architecture itself. What I'm saying is, if you can't tell the story with a 90, a 65 or 75 isn't going to help you tell it any better. It only gives you more, more, and more useless blandness. And really cool skies, I'll give you that

My mini-rant said, why not get the widest sucker you can afford and use it whenever you've got to cram 20 lbs of stuffing into that 10 lb goose? If you err on the side of being too wide, then you really don't need the movements since you'll be cropping anyway. So go ahead and get a 47 or 58 or ?

If you really want wide - and something that these "cram it all in" clients really love, do what I did - get a 6x12 rotating lens Noblex. They are great cameras, tons of fun, and short of getting a 360 degree spinner, you'll be the widest on your block.

I got mine for $1200. I sold my 75 and upgraded to a 90/4.5 for my main wide lens, and I really like the combination. Clients are always suckers for Noblex shots too.

 

[removed account4]

i shoot a lot of lf architectural work, and the 90mm super angulon used to be the most used lens in my kit but i too needed a really wide angle lens from time to time ... i labored over this same question for a few years, i tried to look for a "vintage" lens ( like a 65mm/ 75mm ilex ) that would cover 4x5 with no luck. i ended up getting a 65mm super angulon off of FeeBay - i can't remember the year of production - black barrel so maybe mid 80s? - and couldn't have made a better choice. they do pop up from time to time ... now the 65mm is used more often than the 90 ... it has enough rise, but you will probably end up getting a center filter to correct for fall-off, and they ain't cheep --- even though i got mine for $200 less than market/list price from b&h, it still cost a fortune! oh, if you have a speed graphic, the 65mm SA works in IT without a center filter, and is a great for just straight on shots without any movements at all ...

if you are tring to do this on the cheep ( student budget ) remember tne non "super" angulons don't cover 4x5 ... and from what i remember the ilex might be one of the only vintage lenses that works out ... if you end up shooting really wide on 5x7, a 90mm super angulon does cover a 5x7 negative if you can crank your bellows that far together.

good luck
john

 

[brent8927]

Hmmm... Frank you do make some good points, but first, I don't think my camera can handle 58mm (I believe that's absolute min. bellows extension for my camera) and I usually don't like cropping my images, so the movements would be pretty handy for me.

John, thanks for your advice. I was actually watching an ebay auction for the 65mm super angulon but it ended earlier today and I didn't want to just jump in and possibly regret my purchase later... Of course, it sold (with glass in as-new condition, nothing mentioned on the shutter speeds) for about $515; I was under the impression that was pretty darn cheap since it was the F5.6 version. Oh well...

 

[paul owen]

I can happily recommend the 65mm! It is one of my most used lenses - especially when there are buildings in the shot. Granted it does not have bags of coverage so little movement - but I rarely find the need for any movement anyway as the angle of view is wide enough!

 

[jp80874]

Hmmm... Frank you do make some good points, but first, I don't think my camera can handle 58mm (I believe that's absolute min. bellows extension for my camera) .

Brent,

What about a wide angle bag bellows?

John Powers

 

[jd callow]

Brent,

What about a wide angle bag bellows?

John Powers

What kind of camera?


FWIW: A 65mm or 75mm will be used far more often than the 58mm. Unless the exaggeration of perspective is a desire. Although, it is probably a good practice to use the lens closest to normal when shooting for a client (use the 90mm rather than the 65mm if it will cover the subject) For most people a wide angle is not interchangeable with a Noblex nor is a 90mm as wide as a good photographer will ever need.

 

[jp80874]

What kind of camera?

Brent is a west coaster and probably asleep now. He was using in earlier posts an "Arca-Swiss 4x5 F-Line Classic(it's a newer model, not an the old style)." I made the assumption that a wide angle bellows could be purchased similar to the one I use on a Linhof TK 45. Apologies if one is not available.

John Powers

 

[Frank Petronio]

If you really want to be a cheapskate and produce interesting work, you could always stitch multiple images... might be worth it as you would have a lot of control.

Take a look at Rodenstock Grandagons too, they are often in better shape than old Schneiders.

 

[jp80874]

He was using in earlier posts an "Arca-Swiss 4x5 F-Line Classic(it's a newer model, not an the old style)." I made the assumption that a wide angle bellows could be purchased similar to the one I use on a Linhof TK 45. Apologies if one is not available.

John Powers

Yes, there is a wide angle bellows available for this camera. There is an F Line camera on eBay right now with one, auction "# 7514187673, Arca Swiss F Line 4x5 Field - This Arca Swiss 4x5 Field is in immaculate condition without any marks or scratches. It comes with the leather wide angle bellows and the compact folding rail." Perhaps this rail is also needed.

John

 

[jd callow]

Brent is a west coaster and probably asleep now. He was using in earlier posts an "Arca-Swiss 4x5 F-Line Classic(it's a newer model, not an the old style)." I made the assumption that a wide angle bellows could be purchased similar to the one I use on a Linhof TK 45. Apologies if one is not available.

John Powers

I imagine movements with an accordion bellows with a 90mm would be difficult let alone a 75-58mm.

I have heard great things about the Arca-Swiss cameras, but have never used one. If it works similar to a Sinar and if there is a bag bellows available there should be no limitation to how short he can go.

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

Take a look at Rodenstock Grandagons too, they are often in better shape than old Schneiders.

I'm really pleased with my 75/4.5 Grandagon-N, and it wasn't absurdly expensive. Lots more image circle than the Super-Angulon it replaced, and it covers 6x17, if you are considering or have a 6x17 back. Here's a test shot I posted in the gallery--

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I also have a 65/8.0 Super-Angulon. Sometimes it's the only option, when you're backed into a corner, and it can be useful if you want to do a really wide shot on 4x5" and crop to panorama, but for that I'd rather use the 75 and the 617 back.

 

[brent8927]

I use an Arca-Swiss F-Line Classic with wide angle bellows. I believe when the standards are fully compressed then they can focus at infinity with a 58mm lens when using a 14mm recessed lensboard.

However, I definetely don't want a lens that wide.

 

[brent8927]

Hmm... I apologize, I hadn't seen that there was a second page for this thread and was answering questions/statements from the first page and didn't realize that John had already answered them for me! I was also wondering my post never showed up...

I used to have the normal bellows for my camera but they only allowed about 10mm of movement with my 90mm lens (I believe my camera allows 100mm). I actually sold them, along with the synthetic bag bellows that came with the camera when I bought it, to purchase the pleated leather bellows, which work for a lens as long as a 210mm and still allow for a full range of movements, so it's a more versatile bellows for my work (I really don't want to be changing bellows or carrying them around).

I believe that any lens less than 65mm starts to be limited by my bellows (I purchased them new so they're still a little on the tough side). However, I don't think I would ever need 100mm rise, falll, or shift with a lens that short; certianly no lens that short would even allow for that much movement.

I think right now that the 75mm sounds like the best option for me. It sounds like it's still a good deal wider than the 90 but still allows for some movements.

The stitching option sounded interesting, but I forgot to mention that my architectural photography right now is HABS/HAER photography (I'm not a HABS/HAER photographer, I'm just learning it with a professor and someday plan to become a preservationist and an architect), so I have to do contact prints.