645 Question

[thuggins]

I've read Rockwell's account of the 645n. That's what put me off the original 645; he really panned that one. So it is surprising to see the positive comments here. The original is notably cheaper than the "n", so that is food for thought. But the comments about the range and price of Mamiya lenses, combined with the variety of bodies available, is starting to sway me in that direction.

I do need to weigh in on the notion that 6x6 is some innovative format in its own right. Descriptions from the '30's talk about getting two compositions in one frame. It was certainly a concession to the limitations of turning a tlr sideways. This was repeated with 127 film in the baby tlr's and Komaflex.

 

[winger]

I have a P645N and a Hasselblad 503cxi. I rarely use the Hasselblad - it just isn't that comfortable for my hands. I love the P645N - it's the camera that I'd keep over everything else. 645 is enough of a jump over 35mm and the P645 is still handholdable, depending on the lens. I can handhold with the 75mm, not the 120mm. It may be difficult to get lenses because they also work on the medium format digital system, but they're great. And if you don't mind manually focusing, the ones for the original 645 are good, too.

 

[PFGS]

I've read Rockwell's account of the 645n. That's what put me off the original 645; he really panned that one. So it is surprising to see the positive comments here. The original is notably cheaper than the "n", so that is food for thought. But the comments about the range and price of Mamiya lenses, combined with the variety of bodies available, is starting to sway me in that direction.

I do need to weigh in on the notion that 6x6 is some innovative format in its own right. Descriptions from the '30's talk about getting two compositions in one frame. It was certainly a concession to the limitations of turning a tlr sideways. This was repeated with 127 film in the baby tlr's and Komaflex.

IIRC one of K-Roc's main pans was the prism and/or screen being dark or otherwise sub-par, and much improved on the 645N? Would love to hear from someone who's A-B'd them in person. As an 80's kid I'm not worried about his opinion on push-buttons.

 

[BobD]

There is a 127 film format that is actually larger than 645 on 120. It's 6.5x4.5cm and the cameras are about the same size as 35mm cameras. Too bad 127 wasn't better utilized by camera manufacturers.

 

[MattKing]

There is a 127 film format that is actually larger than 645 on 120. It's 6.5x4.5cm and the cameras are about the same size as 35mm cameras. Too bad 127 wasn't better utilized by camera manufacturers.

Interesting - I have never seen one.
How many shots per roll?

 

[BobD]

Interesting - I have never seen one.
How many shots per roll?

8 shots.

CORRECTION: It's referred to as 4x6.5, not 4.5x6.5, aka 1-5/8" X 2-1/2" while 645 is 1-5/8" X 2-1/4"

In any case, the 2 formats are very close in size but the 127 cameras are much smaller.

Here is one by Certo:
https://tinyurl.com/y3q7ucqw

There are some 4x6.5 cameras listed in the table on this page:
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Vollenda_48

 

[wyofilm]

I'm not sure that I am adding much here, except to say 6x4.5 is noticeably superior 35mm, especially when considering how much film is wasted when printing an 8x10 aspect ratio (1.25) with 35mm film. The aspect ratio for 645 is 1.35, while 35mm is 1.5, thus 645 negs better match typical darkroom papers. The two most common formats I shoot are 645 and 6x6, in that order. I always print square when shooting 6x6.

For 645 I shoot the pentax 645 NII, and often use autofocus, and the Bronica RF645, another excellent camera.

 

[wiltw]

I'm not sure that I am adding much here, except to say 6x4.5 is noticeably superior 35mm, especially when considering how much film is wasted when printing an 8x10 aspect ratio (1.25) with 35mm film. The aspect ratio for 645 is 1.35, while 35mm is 1.5, thus 645 negs better match typical darkroom papers. The two most common formats I shoot are 645 and 6x6, in that order. I always print square when shooting 6x6.

For 645 I shoot the pentax 645 NII, and often use autofocus, and the Bronica RF645, another excellent camera.

Aspect ratio of 645 is decidedly dependent upon the brand of camera!
Bronica is 55.1x42.5... 1.3:1
Mamiya is 56x41.5... 1.35:1
Pentax is 56x41.5... 1.35:1

 

[Deleted member 88956]

One point to add for P645 is it works the closest to a 35mm SLR of all MF SLRs. There are limitations coming from fixed prism, but the way this was put together makes it the most compact 645 SLR ever made.

As I have he 645nII, and am sitting on it before it probably goes away, I would not pay much attention to any suggestions that focus confirmation which works with MF lenses too, is a fix for the MF use on factory screen. It is not. It sort of helps, but when in MF FC is no substitute, just a very minor help at times, and more of a hinderance most of other times.

I had a thread on MF with 645N, so it's somewhere here, but I had bought an after market cheap screen ($30) for 645N with split image. It was freakn' dark, seller wound up cutting the price in half.

 

[wiltw]

One point to add for P645 is it works the closest to a 35mm SLR of all MF SLRs. There are limitations coming from fixed prism, but the way this was put together makes it the most compact 645 SLR ever made.

I have to say the above comment is true, when one is accustomed to the electronic control buttons found in later SLRs from the 1990s, (e.g. EOS), but if one is accustomed to traditional control film SLRs of the 1970s into 1980s, the Bronica ETRS with speed grip handles a lot like a manual control bodied SLR with accessory motor winder or body with integrated grip

 

[summicron1]

645 is a lot bigger neg but my experience was that the camera is a LOT heavier to shoot with than a Rollei...so much so that the advantage of multiple lenses was negated -- a camera and two lenses is a heavy load.

Plus, using the waist level finder made it a paint to shoot vertical images -- and even with the pentaprism finder it was heavy to hold.

Plus, i don't know about the more recent models, but the 1000s model only gave 15 shots to a roll, not 16 -- three extra images wasn't worth all the labor.

my suggestion: find someone who can let you try one before you buy one. I also had trouble selling my really excellent outfit -- you don't want to get stuck with a big system that you don't like.

 

[Ojjokinen]

I recently bought a whole Bronica ETRS system. I love it, and want to provide you with a balanced view on it.

Pros:

• resolution is absolutely noticeably better than 35mm
• great flexibility in the system and accessories and lenses are readily available for decent prices - though the lenses tend to be more expensive than Mamiya counterparts
• Flash sync at all speeds

Cons:

• The prism viewfinder (I have only tried one though, the basic prism) is very dim. I have 20/20 vision and I struggle nailing focus indoors without lighting on the subject to assist me. This makes me want to shoot with the WLF finder which brings me to the second point:
• The poor usability of the prism in poor lighting has led me to wish it had a rotating back like the Mamiya RB67 does.

Other things:

• I wouldnt be able to compare it to the other 645 systems and though I hear it is lighter than them, it is not light for a 35mm shooter and you will notice it. It is not a camera you can/will have with you wherever you go.
• The glass is very good
• The speed grip is so good I rarely take it off at all
• Moving from 35mm, be prepared to buy a proper separate light meter
• 15 frames per roll feels perfect to me but this is a matter of preference of course
• You wont want to go back to shooting 35mm, it would be like going from a Nikon DSLR to a Canon Coolpix
• The ETRS does NOT have a mirror lock-up, Bulb mode (though there is an inconvenient workaround), nor a timer. I understand the ETRSi does have a Bulb mode.
• Note that there are various editions of lenses, and the MC ones are prone to flare. If at all possible, you'd want to find a deal with PE lenses which are the best for the system.

I got a whole system in near mint condition, with original boxes. It only ever had one previous owner, and it all came with original Bronica leaflets and even a card with instructions to join your local Bronica club (sadly of course, that would have been in the 80's-90's). I paid £450 for the following:

• ETRS body
• 75mm Zenzanon E-II lens
• 50mm MC lens (+ hood)
• 150mm MC lens
• Two 120 film backs
• Polaroid back (though sadly this type of polaroid is no longer manufactured)
• Speed grip
• Waist level finder
• Prism finder
• Automatic Bellows system

If you have some patience you could certainly find a more bare-back deal for around £300.

If you are interested in learning more about the ETRS system, I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have. I have also attached my favourite photograph with it, scanned at 2400dpi with Epson V550 to make this lengthy response more interesting hopefully. Sadly the film had a backing paper issue!
Olli

 

[R.Gould]

I have 2 Bronica etrsi's and love them, I also have a Mamiya m645 s 1000, which I bought as an outfit, with 80mm1.9, 45,150,210 and 500 lenses for £250 over here, but I prefer the Bronica's, the only thing I would disagree on is the plain prism finder, I find it as bright, if not slightly brighter, than the waist level finder, The etrsi has bulb, and on the lenses you have a time setting that keeps the shutter open as long as you want, It is certainly lighter to carry than the Mamiya, and with the speed grip does feel better in the hand, more like a 35mm than 645,in fact have had one for 29 years, with the prism check taht there is no haze, they can get hazy which would make them appear dim, also you can get a metering prism the ae2 or 3, but I believe they can eat battery's personally I prefer to use a hand held meter, in my case a Weston Euromaster, it seems to help in slowing shooting

 

[guangong]

If I were the OP, originally asking opinions about a choice between two cameras, I would be totally bewildered by the multitude of suggestions offered. Although fun to read. So many opinions, so many choices. We all have our favorite cameras, which are always the best.
The sad fact is that large well stocked camera stores no longer exist where a buyer could fondle and fiddle with a bunch of cameras before laying out cash. For example, after reading about Pentax 67 and Linhof 120 press camera back then, I rushed to Willoughbys with money burning a hole in my pocket. However, when playing with them in store, decided to stay with Hassy and Rolleiflex TLR.
My Hassy at the time was my soon to die 1000F.

 

[guangong]

This is a huge myth. The 645 negative is three times larger than the 35mm negative so I am completely confused why people feel the need to say it is no better than 35mm.

But, never mind, I do get easily confused.

Pioneer, I do shoot 645;slides, along with 66&67. But my remarks also included camera manipulation. I occasionally use 645 back on Hassy, but have tried and found 645 cameras rather awkward in use compared with more compact, more ergonomic 35 mm. Negative size+camera size and design = choice. Choice of design and handling can sometimes count for more than caliber. Had friends shooting my grandson’s little single shot .22. Stock just too short. Nobody shot very well.

 

[wyofilm]

Aspect ratio of 645 is decidedly dependent upon the brand of camera!
Bronica is 55.1x42.5... 1.3:1
Mamiya is 56x41.5... 1.35:1
Pentax is 56x41.5... 1.35:1

Ok, but the important consideration is that 35mm film is a poor match for typical enlargement ratios - of course with the right easel one can print any aspect ratio.

 

[wyofilm]

If I were the OP, originally asking opinions about a choice between two cameras, I would be totally bewildered by the multitude of suggestions offered. Although fun to read. So many opinions, so many choices. We all have our favorite cameras, which are always the best.
The sad fact is that large well stocked camera stores no longer exist where a buyer could fondle and fiddle with a bunch of cameras before laying out cash. For example, after reading about Pentax 67 and Linhof 120 press camera back then, I rushed to Willoughbys with money burning a hole in my pocket. However, when playing with them in store, decided to stay with Hassy and Rolleiflex TLR.
My Hassy at the time was my soon to die 1000F.

You are right. On the plus side, prices are cheaper. Thus mistakes (learning opportunities) are less painful.

 

[flavio81]

I am torn between the Mamiya (any of the various versions) and the Pentax 645n. What are the thoughts and observations from folks who have used them? I am also curious about lens availability, quality and prices.

You should consider the Bronice ETR line as well... I love my ETRSi. Used with the WLF and no grips ,it's remarkably small and light. Makes people that use big 35mm cameras like the Nikon F5 look completely silly. This camera weights less, is arguably smaller, and will definitely give far superior image qualty. I have the 50/2.8, 75/2.8 and 150/4 lenses. Lenses are very well made. Leaf shutter lenses so it can sync with flash at any speed, plus the ETRSi has TTL flash if you want it.

Used with grip and the AE-II finder, it should be as ergonomic (or even more ergonomic!) than a 35mm camera, allowing you aperture-priority AE as well, which is simple to use -- just turn the aperture ring on the lenses.

I've tried my friends' Mamiya M645 but found the ergonomics much inferior. The nice surprise was that the focal plane shutter of the M645 wasn't as crude (brute) as I thought it would be.

Cheapest lenses are the ones for the M645 and for the Pentax 645. Bronica lenses are cheap for the 75 and the 150, but the wideangles are way more expensive on the xbay marketplace.

I have a P645N and a Hasselblad 503cxi. I rarely use the Hasselblad

Wait until Sirius Glass reads your post...

I recently bought a whole Bronica ETRS system. I love it, and want to provide you with a balanced view on it.

The prism viewfinder (I have only tried one though, the basic prism) is very dim. I have 20/20 vision and I struggle nailing focus indoors without lighting on the subject to assist me. This makes me want to shoot with the WLF finder which brings me to the second point:

For focusing, the WLF is much better than the basic prism. Brightness is very good with it as well.

I'm tempted to buy the AE-II prism but then I recall how much I like the WLF.

 

[whojammyflip]

The 645N has some clever mirror counterbalance weight mechanism to reduce mirror slap. The lenses are typical Pentax quality and incredibly sharp. The downside is that the lenses are also bought up by folks using the digital medium format Pentax body. Not only that, but prices for the 645 bodies have recently gone totally mad, to the point that I would be put off buying a Pentax 645. I use mine on a tripod, even though it can be handheld, you immediately lose the resolution advantage.

I previously owned a ETRSi, but note that they have also gone mad in terms of prices. I got rid of my ETRSi for about 250 quid and bought a 645N with FA 75mm for about 350 quid back in 2014. I see now that there is a 645N body on ebay currently at 400 and going up. A 645N with FA 75 just sold for 760 pounds in the UK. Not worth it in my opinion, at this price. You are almost better off going for the Pentax 67 due to incompatibility with the digital crowd and the fact that you can get a Pentax 67 for nearly the same price as a 645 now. Although these cameras are professional level quality, who is going to repair them? I think the 67 is more likely to be something someone could repair.

 

[narsuitus]

I shoot medium format cameras.

I have used Pentax cameras and Mamiya cameras.

I shoot with 6x6, 6x7, and 6x9cm medium format cameras but I have never used a 645 camera.

Before I read this thread, I had come to the conclusion that if I ever decided to buy a 645 camera, it would be the Pentax 645 because I knew an Alaskan landscape photographer who produced some excellent images under very harsh conditions with a pair of Pentax 645 cameras.

However, after reading the comments in this thread, I would now buy the Mamiya 645 because of the lower price.

 

[flavio81]

I think the 67 is more likely to be something someone could repair.

I disagree fully. A leaf-shutter SLR like the Bronica ETR is simpler to repair: There's no shutter inside, the body itself is very simple. If the shutter fails you can always get another lens.

The Pentax 6x7 (or P67) has a densely packed focal plane shutter which is controlled by early 1970's electronics. Can't be simpler to repair than an ETR or a Mamiya RB67 (which is an extermely simple body to repair BTW).

Aside from that issue, I sold my P67 because i couldn't stand the crude rocking vibration made by its shutter. Made the camera unusable below 1/125 (!). It's a pity because the lenses are indeed fantastic. I didn't have the wooden grip handle though; it seems it counteracts the shutter vibration. But It makes the camera even bigger!!

The RB67 was, ergonomically, a much better camera thus I kept my RB and sold the P67. I still miss it, though; when the body was steady the lens could shine and give amazing results.

 

[dmtnkl]

Regarding the 645 format, i think it is great. I like the 4:3 ratio and prefer it to the square 6x6 as very often i like to shoot in vertical orientation. As far as size goes, i think it hits a sweet spot. 3x more area than 35mm while at the same time giving 16 frames per roll. Detail is plentiful for me. It is also practical as i mainly shoot slides and i can therefore easily find mounts to project them. Recently got a projector and did my first slideshow. The images are spectacular and feel a lot more "dense" and "robust" than 35mm.

Regarding the Pentax 645n and 645n ii... I have been using one for some time now and i can easily recommend it. It is a great system.

Pros:
- small, tightly integrated body. Other 645 or 66 SLRs get out of control once you start attaching grips, prisms etc.
- Nice, big viewfinder with informative display of important information (shutter speed, exposure compensation etc...)
- Supports autofocus with newer lenses (single and continuous mode).
- Compatible with older manual focus lenses and Pentax 67 lenses.
- Spot, center weighted and matrix metering with all lenses.
- Manual mode, Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority and Program Mode available with all lenses.
- Exposure compensation dial available.
- Bracketing capable.
- Continuous shooting mode available.
- Multiple exposure capable.
- User configurable to shoot either 15 or 16 frames per roll.
- Can imprint exposure data on the frame edges if desired.

Cons:
- Cannot change back mid-roll.
- No interchangeable viewfinders.
- Battery holder is a weak point. Inspect for cracks before buying. In any case, try to find a second one as a backup.
- Dials need to be used with care, without applying a lot of force. There are reports of them breaking as the bodies age.
- Mirror slap and noise, compared to a TLR or a rangefinder, but this is an issue with most SLRs anyway.

 

[fs999]

I give you just one advice : buy the camera you like most not what others like or want...

 

[Donald Qualls]

For those who like the RB67, there was a 645 back for it (in 120, at least). I have one. Because of the revolving back, there's no need to turn the camera, and the viewfinder screen is 7x7, so the 645 has lots of room around it (you can get or easily make a drop-in mask for the viewfinder to match your working format). Versatility? Let's see, lenses from 50mm to 500mm (and at least three brands of 2x teleconverters), 6x7 and (if you don't insist on Mamiya backs and their interlocks) 6x6 as additional format options, excellent optics, and relatively reasonable prices. WLF standard, but metered and unmetered prisms available. Plus, the interchangeable backs mean you can switch film speeds or B&W to color in the middle of a roll, assuming you've got a couple spares.

Oh, and aside from metered prisms and the motor drive 220 backs, it's a 100% mechanical system; doesn't even have a battery compartment. Yeah, it's heavy; that's its biggest drawback.

 

[whojammyflip]

I disagree fully. A leaf-shutter SLR like the Bronica ETR is simpler to repair: There's no shutter inside, the body itself is very simple. If the shutter fails you can always get another lens.

I meant to compare the Pentax 645N vs the Pentax 67. If the 645N was a Ferrari, the 67 would be a Landrover Defender. But you are welcome to set fire to and dance around your straw man.