5x2 seconds does not equal 10 seconds?

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Palmer

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I was reading a passage in Barry Thornton's book, Edge of Darkness, where he talks about finding the time for maximum black when making a contact sheet. He states that if you use, say, increments of 2 second exposures and find that 5 lots of 2 second exposures is right for achieving maximum black, then when making the contact sheet DONT give one 10 second exposure because that will be MORE than 5 lots of 2 seconds.

I have a feeling I am going to feel a bit silly when someone gives me the answer to this but I cant figure out why this is. I have thought about the time the lamp takes to warm up with each exposure but I'm not sure if this is the only factor because he doesn't say in the book. So, if someone could enlighten me on this I would be grateful.

Steve
 

Ray Heath

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g'day ss
i always believed it to be caused by the warm up of the bulb

it is only a problem when several short time intervals are used e.g. 5 lots of 2 is worse than 5 lots of 10

whatever, it gets you close, in your example i'd then do a strip 6 +2 +2 and probably 8 would be close enough to optimum
 

kraker

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On the other hand...

Interesting...

If you had only mentioned that 2x5s is not 10s, without saying which one is longer... then my first thought would have been that 2 x 5 s is *longer* than 1 x 10 s, because the switching off of the lamp is not instanteneous. There will be some "after-glow", twice versus once.

Then again, the same is true for switching on... so that might cancel out the switching off.

I guess Ray has a good point. It's not the beginning or the end, it's the middle part that makes the difference.

Then again, well, would it really be noticable? I guess maybe for short exposures?
 

mmcclellan

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There is a factor called "intermittency effect" (I do not understand the science behind it!) that basically means several short bursts do not add up to one long one. That's why when you do test strips, you want to use a short burst of 3 seconds or so and then make the test strip to see how many bursts are needed. If you make two prints and compare them side by side, you will see that several shorts do not add up to one long. As Fred Picker used to say, "different is not the same." If your test shows 5 3-second bursts, then use 5 3-second bursts and not one 15-second burst. Different is not the same, thanks to the intermittency effect.
 

Roger Hicks

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There is a factor called "intermittency effect" (I do not understand the science behind it!)

Yes, but all you're doing is restating the question. In this case, bulb warming seems the likeliest candidate: inertia and latent image regression can almost certainly be ignored. In another case, reciprocity might be a more appealing conclusion.

But there's a fascinating trick Sir Kenneth Corfield once told me (I have never tried it) for photographing flowers on a windy day. When the wind dies down, the flowers return astonishingly close to the same position every time, so he would cheerfully chop a 1-second exposure into 10x 1/10 second...
 

mmcclellan

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Yes, but all you're doing is restating the question. In this case, bulb warming seems the likeliest candidate: inertia and latent image regression can almost certainly be ignored. In another case, reciprocity might be a more appealing conclusion.

But there's a fascinating trick Sir Kenneth Corfield once told me (I have never tried it) for photographing flowers on a windy day. When the wind dies down, the flowers return astonishingly close to the same position every time, so he would cheerfully chop a 1-second exposure into 10x 1/10 second...

Bulb warming should not be an issue with cold light, yet this effect is still there. I think it has more to do with hitting the threshold of the paper and then building up density from there. In any case, the effect is real so we just have to live with it.

Paul Strand used to do the same thing Corfield did. He said that on windy days, natural objects would always return to their resting state once the wind died down, so he would just cover the lens when the wind blew and then uncover it again after everything settled down. With all the reciprocity issues at play on long exposures, though, the intermittency effect if probably "overruled" by reciprocity issues in terms of how it affects exposure.
 

Roger Hicks

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Bulb warming should not be an issue with cold light, yet this effect is still there. I think it has more to do with hitting the threshold of the paper and then building up density from there. In any case, the effect is real so we just have to live with it.

Paul Strand used to do the same thing Corfield did. He said that on windy days, natural objects would always return to their resting state once the wind died down, so he would just cover the lens when the wind blew and then uncover it again after everything settled down. With all the reciprocity issues at play on long exposures, though, the intermittency effect if probably "overruled" by reciprocity issues in terms of how it affects exposure.

I've long found it to be MORE of an issue with cold light. Depending on the phosphors, a warm cold light (sure and you know what I mean) can give as much as a stop more than a cold one. That's quite apart from start-up times. Or were you talking about using a shutter?

2 seconds to 10 seconds is a log range of 0,7, so the inertia should be overcome in the first 2 second exposure if 10 seconds gives a maximum black, assuming an ISO(R) of 90-110 (medium grade paper). Latent image regression should not, I think, have much effect in the next 4 exposures.

In 1927, Clarence Weinland, J. Opt. Soc. Am. 15:337 'The Intermittency Effect in Photographic Exposure' demonstrated that previous exposure to bring the latent image up to the beginning of the straight line portion of the curve caused almost complete elimination of the intermittency effect (Haist page 747).

Intriguingly, Haist also suggests (on page 746, citing Silberstein and Webb in 1934) that 'when the light intervals of the intermittent exposures are about equal to the average rate of incidence of the photons upon the silver halide crystals, the intermittency effect disappears; that is, the intermittent exposure yields the same density upon development as would a non-intermittent exposure of the same duration and average intensity." If I read that right, then a 20-second exposure at f/8 would give the same density as 5x 2 second exposures, evenly spread aross 20 seconds, at f/5.6.

It's also intriguing that with bright enough intermittent exposures, density increases as a result of the intermittency effect. This all seems to be related to reciprocity failure, which has two different roots: at low intensities, latent image regression or dissipation is a significant factor when compared with the speed of latent image formation, while at high intensities, there are so many free electrons that the latent image speck becomes negatively charged, repelling some electrons which disappear into the crystal and become unavailable for development; the latent image centres are not built up to a sufficient size.

At this point, we see that the problem here is intermittency effect almost certainly augmented by bulb warming. I'm not surprised when you say you don't understand the science: I've just been reading Haist's summary, and I strongly suspect that even if I read the original papers he cites, I still wouldn't understand it fully either. But I learned quite a bit while trying to find the answer, which is what it's all about.

Edit: I realize the above could sound arrogant: "Even I couldn't understand it, and I'm much cleverer than you are." What I meant was, "I'm very nearly as much in the dark as you are, even after reading it up in Haist."

I fully take your point that intermittency happens, and we have to live with it, but this doesn't remove the interest of finding out why and how it happens. In purely practical terms, it explains why we make work prints and then modify them, which is why I've always throught the 'maximum black' criterion to be of limited usefulness.

Finally, thanks for the reference to Strand.

Cheers,

Roger
 
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Palmer

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Thanks everyone. So I guess it's a combination of bulb warm up and intermittency effect. As I said, I am only using it for exposing contact sheets and it is certainly not inconvenient to do multiple short exposures but I was just curious as to what was happening.

Thanks for the input.

Steve
 

juan

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I'd also include timing errors. The potential is certainly there for a 2 second exposure to actually be 2.2 seconds - making the total time 11-seconds rather than 10 (just an example - don't hold me to the numbers). I've found that doing things the same way usually leads to more consistent results.
juan
 

ann

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one would be surprised just how different times can vary. In fact, i have run some test with the timers finding that the "real" time is not an indiation of the lettering on the face of the timer. Which just leads me to second the above statement.
 

Daniel_OB

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It has to do with exposure-density curve of photo-paper. Low exposure time is in the low slope part of the curve, while longer one gets onto high slope (straighr line). Short exposure will never get full black no matter how long is development.
So cumulative short exposures, where single one are at the low slope, normally is not the same as one longer which can reach onto the straight line.
Hope it is clear how come 2+2+2+2=5.

www.Leica-R.com
 

Roger Hicks

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It has to do with exposure-density curve of photo-paper. Low exposure time is in the low slope part of the curve, while longer one gets onto high slope (straighr line). Short exposure will never get full black no matter how long is development.
So cumulative short exposures, where single one are at the low slope, normally is not the same as one longer which can reach onto the straight line.
Hope it is clear how come 2+2+2+2=5.

www.Leica-R.com
No, Daniel, that's not entirely it. Read Haist -- or indeed, just my post -- and you'll see that the intermittency effect is rather more complicated, and that it can lead to increased density as well as decreased.

Cheers,

Roger
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Interesting. My life definitely improved when I got a Metrolux timer, which compensates for bulb ramping effects by using a sensor that measures the actual light output of the bulb.

On the other hand, it lets me use very short exposures, which I rather like for certain purposes, but might I be getting more intermittency issues, because I could be in the short-exposure reciprocity zone for enlarging paper? I haven't noticed it, perhaps because I haven't created the right conditions for it, or maybe I compensate for it in some other way, but it's good to know that it exists in case it comes up at some point.

There's definitely something going on with multiple pops for strobe exposures. It's not unusual, for instance, for some photographers to add one pop for every four or so. I can measure cumulative exposure with multiple pops using my Minolta Flashmeter III, but I haven't compared measured exposure vs. effect on film in any rigorous way. When I use multiple pops for macro, I'm usually figuring it out by calculation after taking a base reading.
 

RossJarvis

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If you are interested in the why, then I'm sure this has been answered in the previous postings. If you are concerned as to how it effects your contact prints then I suggest using a "moving slot" or similar procedure to make your test strips and give each strip the full exposure I.e. 2 seconds then 4 secs then 6secs (or use f-stop intervals). You need a slot cut into a sheet of wide card that covers the whole size you are testing, the slot being the width of your normal strips. Expose the first strip for the shortest time, then move the slot to cover the first strip and expose a new strip for the full time. This way each strip has the full exposure and is not one made from consecutive short exposures. They can still be compared to each other and this may save having to fine tune the exposure for a second time.

If you move the paper rather than the slot and neg you can also compare the exact same strip too.
 

David A. Goldfarb

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Actually, this is what I do when I make test strips, so maybe it's why I haven't noticed this effect. Usually I just hold a card over the paper and move it each interval with the metronome going.
 

David Brown

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You know, I’ve read about this phenomenon before, but never got too worked up about it. For me, the final print exposure has always been verified by the print itself, and has as much to do with my perception than anything else. The whole print almost never looks the same to me as the portion of the image on a test strip.

The test strip gets me close, then I have to fine tune with more tests of single exposures until I hit the one that “looks right”. Even then, the print may not look “right” the next day and I may make more adjustments. Trust me, I don’t waste any more paper than I have too, but I always thought that’s what the trash can in the darkroom was for.
 

Jim Jones

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Even Ansel Adams recommended test strip exposures of equal increments. On page 62 of the 1968 edition of The Print he suggests (for example) exposures of 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40 seconds to give adequate time for dodging and burning. Equal increments do work fairly well over such a narrow range of exposures. Not so with a wide range of exposures. If five exposures of two seconds are made, the second exposure is a full stop greater than the first, while the fifth is a quarter stop greater than the fourth.

The effect of several short exposures with an incandescent lamp operated from a normal power source should be similar to the same time in one long exposure. As Roger said, it can be different with non-incandescent light sources. The big metal halide lamps I used to expose diazo graphic arts film initially produced about half power and required half a minute to reach full output. While we had a device that could, like the Metrolux timer David mentioned, integrate the actual light and control the exposure, it was easier to mentally compensate when exposures were critical.
 

vet173

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Actually, this is what I do when I make test strips, so maybe it's why I haven't noticed this effect. Usually I just hold a card over the paper and move it each interval with the metronome going.
This is how I have always done it. So this is not an issue at all for me.
 

jstraw

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One thing that I've wondered about...but have no position on is this...these differences, if expressed as stops (for us f-stop printers), do they amount to a quantity of exposure above or below our working threshhold?
 
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The thing that baffles me is - why do folks use bursts at all? It seems almost erroneous. Just get one of the larger dodging tools you have, use a $10 metronome so you get a rhythm. Then proceed in doing your test strip by just moving the (hopefully opaque) straight edge dodging tool across the surface of the print a little at a time. I ususally have six intervals, five seconds each, between five and thirty seconds. Develop that. Fine the two best adjacent ones, SWAG it, and make a first print and work from there. Another thing you might want to consider is Michael Smith's technique of making one knowingly too dark print, one knowingly too bright print, and then estimate your exposure based on that. He claims he waists less paper that way. I usually get better prints using that technique, but I also feel like I'm actually using more paper. Probably since I'm nowhere near as good a printer as he is.
It is so simple. The bulb warms up the same way it would in the final exposure, no thresholds and God knows what else comes into play. Wow. I am very surprised that people actually use the bursts.

- Thomas


If you are interested in the why, then I'm sure this has been answered in the previous postings. If you are concerned as to how it effects your contact prints then I suggest using a "moving slot" or similar procedure to make your test strips and give each strip the full exposure I.e. 2 seconds then 4 secs then 6secs (or use f-stop intervals). You need a slot cut into a sheet of wide card that covers the whole size you are testing, the slot being the width of your normal strips. Expose the first strip for the shortest time, then move the slot to cover the first strip and expose a new strip for the full time. This way each strip has the full exposure and is not one made from consecutive short exposures. They can still be compared to each other and this may save having to fine tune the exposure for a second time.

If you move the paper rather than the slot and neg you can also compare the exact same strip too.
 
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I use bursts to ensure sharp edges between test strips. Bulb on/off, move card. bulb on/off move card etc. I found all too often that moving the card while the bulb was on made for vague transitions between test strips and small density changes within each strip. For example, moving left to right the left side of each strip would have just slightly higher density than the right side which made it more difficult to determine the time I wanted to for the next test print.

Another element of test strips that can be easily overlooked is the time steps between strips. If you expose strips at even (arithmetic) intervals (example 3,6,9,12 seconds) the density progression between strips will not be consistent. What you have done here is create strips with non-linear density changes. If three seconds gives you a density of "1" (arbitrary scale) the next strip will have a density of "2" the third a density of "2.5" and the third "2.75" (note this is using early morning math with is approximate). If your 12 second test print is too light then going to 15 seconds won't make much of a difference. The same rules apply when exposing film. You typically work in whole or half stops or maybe thirds of a stop. I don't think there are many people who try to work in smaller exposure increments.

Another advantage of the "bursts method" is that you can give the pedal one tap, then two, then four then eight to get even progressions in density. This helps to get the range dialed in quicker for me. Particularly with a negative that is really thin or dense and the SWAG estimate doesn't get me close. You could do this by card and metronome but it is likely to be error prone.

Jason...
 
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Well, each to their own I guess. I found my method to be the least confusing. The more scientific I make it, the more time I feel I spend on the science rather than the art. Whether it's a stop or five seconds between the exposures, does it really matter as long as it helps you pick what looks good?
- Thomas
 
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I agree 100% it is the results that count, not the method.

The "burst" approach works best for me, I found I made too many mistakes trying to count beeps and think at the same time. :wink:
 
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