4x5 with JOBO 2509N reel - not quite happy :(

Bob F.

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I also have never had a problem with my 2509N reels that was not down to a dumb mistake by me. I run it at high speed on a CPE2, mainly with FP4+ in ID-11 with ocassional forays in to Rodinal, and follow the recommended processing sequence in the Jobo manuals. No sign of uneven development or wedges.

Just thought I'd big-up the 2509N reels as they seem to get a lot of stick, but I've never had a problem with mine...


Cheers, Bob.
 

Nick Zentena

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Like I said work perfect for me to-)

The experts have a different set of problems. How much developer can you put into a 3010 drum?
 

richard littlewood

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This streaking problem is weird. Some folks insist they dont get it and to others it is a real problem with these reels and 5x4 film - I've never had it with the roll film reels, it seems to only be a problem with the sheet reels. There is a way round it that involves a bit of brave DIY, but once completed 12 sheets can be processed using only 700ml of chemicals with edge to edge even-ness. Honestly its that good!
Expert drums are without a doubt better, but like you Denis I had already set myself up with a CPE-2 and a 2553 drum with sheet reels, and I was determined to mess around with the spirals till any development nasties were a thing of the past. If you have the gear get stuck in!
 

Bob F.

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I wonder if it is a developer thing - a more viscous developer promoting uneven development caused by drag at the edges of the reel? Or the difference may be the reels with, and those without, the plastic film holder clips? Or the processor not being level, or.... :confused:

Cheers, Bob.
 

richard littlewood

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Bob
I tried ID-11 at 1+1, 1+2, Rodinal and a few D-76 varients and I always had the edge problems. I've never not used the reel clips, although no doubt they introduce their own influences on development! The CPE-2 and reels are dead good at developing sheet film, its just the lack of attention Jobo gave to the spiral sides when they designed the things - like they almost intended them to be second rate. And speaking of second rate - the lift arm on the CPE-2 - very toy like!
 

Lee L

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I lived in Germany in 1982-83 and was processing by hand in a bathroom where we rented. The landlady changed her mind after the first rolls, and insisted that I work in an unheated basement where it was way too cold, so I purchased a CPE-2 and the 2501 and 2509(not N) reels just so I could keep working. Following Jobo's then current instructions I got horrible flow streaks with both sets of reels, making the system completely unusable. We moved and I was then able to work in a heated bathroom with SS tanks and reels. Jobo was very helpful with parts when I changed the CPE-2 over to 110V on returning to the states, and I used it with good results for Ciba and printing from negs.

Replacing a multiple hundred dollar investment that was a miserable failure for its intended purpose with a multiple thousand dollar investment in the Expert system seemed like a cruel joke to me when they introduced that system, while never admitting that the streaking could be a problem with the original 2501 and 2509 reels. Claims that the earlier system was problem-free did nothing to convince me that the claims for the Expert system were true. I'm willing to believe that the Expert drum system works well given the evidence of many independent users. I may even try the older reels with the revised instructions about presoaking and agitation that came out several years after I bought my CPE-2 and reels (when I have some time and film to waste).

Suggesting that someone who purchased a CPE-2 and reels in good faith should ditch it and buy a system from the same company where just a tank costs more than the original processor unit is a bit over the top. It may be true that you only get consistent and acceptable performance from the higher end equipment, but Jobo is silly to pretend that the CPE-2 setup works consistently and well for film processing. Buying a complete and much more expensive replacement system is not a "fix" for a poorly designed product. When the fuel pump on your brand new Golf doesn't function properly, the solution shouldn't be junking the Golf with no credit for it and purchasing a Phaeton.

When I contacted Jobo by email about getting 2509N reels to replace my 2509, they refused to admit that the 2509 was a poor design, while saying that the 2509N was better. That attitude failed to convince me that buying a 2509N was worth it.

Lee
 

Nick Zentena

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Bob F. said:
Yup, I've always been deeply underimpressed with the build quality of the CPE2 - especially given the high cost. Every time I use the lift with a large drum I expect it to snap in half...

Cheers, Bob.
Click to expand...


Part of the reason I rigged up my frankstein setup. Works no worse. Costs much less. Handles more film.
 

Nick Zentena

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I think I've seen people with every possible variation claim problems.
With richard's fix I wonder if some of the batches of reels are worse. Maybe a different mold or something? Less finishing?
 
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Denis P.

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Lee, I can see that you're rather disappointed about the whole thing - I would probably feel the same if I had to dish out the full price for a new processor plus tanks!

However, I got the old CPE 2 with lift, two big drums (one for film, other for paper), about 7-8 older style JOBO reels, plus 3-4 smaller JOBO tanks for hand processing - all for the princely sum of about $70
I've paid almost half of that amount just for the new Jobo 2509N reel, purchased about a month ago...

I've used the processor and 2553 tank (the one for 5 35mm reels or 3 120 reels) with good and consistent results for the past year or so - but it was limited to 35mm and medium format.

There were some issues with the processor when I got it - but they were due to poor handling by the previous owner, and I was able to set them straight with minor DIY work.

I do have a gripe with it - it's the poor design of the lift handle. Nowadays I just use a piece of string tied to the end of the lift "cradle", and pull on that when raising the lift - instead of using the lift handle alone. It takes the load off the lift handle and keeps it from breaking. May be ugly, but it works.

I'm sure I'll nail this 4x5 sheet film development problem, too - just give me some time

Still, I'd recommend Jobo processors and tanks to everyone, provided they can get them second-hand (read: cheap). - which shouldn't be much of a problem nowadays.
They go cheaper in Germany than on the US used market - just check out ebay.de for current prices for used processors and whole kits.

In the USA, Unicolor drums and roller bases might be a cheaper and more readily available solution.

Denis
 

Ole

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That's another thing I don't complain about - the lift.

I don't have one!

It could be that I have less problems since I use a more dilute developer - Rodinal, Beutler's, FX-2. We'll see what happens in a few weeks when I try E6...
 

Paul Sorensen

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I tried yesterday with the new (to me) motor base and had even worse results. I am thinking of trying to "log roll" them in a water bath the way that one uses the BTZS tubes. Has anyone tried that? It will be more hands on, of course, but it seems to me that it will help mitigate some of the problems by introducing more randomness to the process. the BTZS folks say that they find that the natural bouncing of the tube in the water along with variable speed rolling promotes evenness.
 

Lee L

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I did a quick experiment early last summer with 4x5 film inserted into 1.5 inch ABS, then placed inside another larger tube and run on a Beseler roller base. The other tube in this case was a piece of 4 inch PVC pipe with small centered holes in endcaps through which the 1.5 inch "film holder" pipe could be passed. I got very promising results, and expect the same could be done with a 1.5 inch PVC pipe "film holder" inside a standard SS rollfilm tank of appropriate length, even in daylight. I haven't had time to follow up on this technique.

One drawback is that it's one sheet at a time, but you only need a small amount of chemical to cover the film inside the rolling tube. For my test I tried enough developer to come about halfway up the diameter of the 1.5 inch film tube. That gave sufficient coverage and allowed friction with the outer tube to spin the film tube constantly. Too much liquid would float the internal ABS pipe I was using, which also might be a method worth exploring.

Lee
 

Changeling1

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Jobo states repeatedly that if you REALLY want the best outcome when developing sheet film is to use the 3010 Expert drum. Since this is such a far superior method of developing sheet film in the Jobo system it makes me wonder why they even sell the 2509 tank system. Whatever savings that might be realized using the lower cost (and not by that much) 2509 tanks will be seriously offset by the less than stellar results of the reel system. The 3010 drums show up on eBay with great regularity at up to two thirds off the new retail price. Why bother with a system that even the company who sells it says is less that perfect?
 

Ole

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Changeling1 said:
The 3010 drums show up on eBay with great regularity at up to two thirds off the new retail price. Why bother with a system that even the company who sells it says is less that perfect?
Click to expand...

Several reasons:

1) Price: The drums may not be that expensive, but they can't be used on the (cheap) CPE.

2) Space: See above - a CPA is larger than a CPE.

3) Flexibility: The 2521 (or 2523) drums can be used for developing by inversion, or stand development, or whatever. The expert drums can't.
 

Nick Zentena

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The 3010 is seriously limited in the volume it can use. A non-starter for me no matter the price.
 

Paul Sorensen

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Well, I just did some negs today using my logrolling idea, and I am extremely happy. The streaks and surge marks I was having are all gone. I used a very large drum with three reels, two of them the old ones and one 2509N with the film holding thingies. All were extremely uniform. It was a minor pain turning the tank by hand, but way less than the pain I was suffering from extremely poor negs every time.
 

Changeling1

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Paul,
Glad you got good results. How many sheets did you process at one time using the log-rolling method? I'm only able to run 10 sheets at a time but I'm considering trying to find another 3010 drum on eBay.
 
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Denis P.

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Just to follow up on this issue...

I developed another batch yesterday - same setup (Jobo CPE, 2509N reel with flaps, 2523 tank, Rodinal 1+60, about the same quantity of chemicals, only 4 negs on the reel), and the scans show no problems at all!!! The only difference is that I took the rotation speed advice - I simply used the faster speed, and everything came out just fine!

Thanks, folks!
 

RainerQ

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Hi Denis,

did you a "prewashing"? I use to do so even in developing 120 film (water for about 2 minutes). Far as I know this is recommended for sheet-film.

Rainer
 
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Denis P.

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RainerQ said:
Hi Denis,

did you a "prewashing"? I use to do so even in developing 120 film (water for about 2 minutes). Far as I know this is recommended for sheet-film.

Rainer
Click to expand...

Yes. I forgot to add that...

I followed Jobo instructions in full (including 5 minutes' prewash). The only thing that made a difference was the higher rotation speed. That solved everything

Denis
 

Hervé V.

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With a 2509 , don't forget to use the two retention plates !
they are necessery to break the linear flow from liquid .
 

grahamp

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The main reason I usually load 4 sheets in my 2509n reels is the dilution of the developer and the volume limits of the tank and machine. I often use FG-7 at 1+15 on a CPE-2 Plus with lift, and more than 4 sheets is too much for the active ingredients. I do a pre-wash of 5 minutes or more, and the only speed is 75 rpm on this model. No streaks or marks.

I do consider it important to level the tank, not the machine. I find that the tank sits at a slightly different angle depending on the tank model, and this is not necessarily parallel to the sides of the bath.
 
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