4x5 Value

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DwayneLarson

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Hey all.

New to this forum and was wondering if anyone could help me out. I was gifted this camera a few years ago and I am thinking of selling it but I don't know the value or what I should be asking for it OR if I even really want to sell it. I have attached photos so any kind of help would be greatly appreciated.
 

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Alan Gales

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It's a Sinar Norma. Look at completed Ebay sales for Sinar Norma's to give you an idea of current prices.

As for the lens, 210mm lenses are quite common and the last time I looked nice ones go from $150 to $200 and sometimes less (Ebay prices). Yours is a Caltar which is a rebranded name brand lens so it will go for a little less than average. I believe the "S" in Caltar S stands for Schneider. Of course that is if the lens is really nice and the shutter works.

There are some who consider the Sinar Norma to be the best monorail ever made. I think it's the prettiest. A monorail is the easiest large format camera to learn on. Don't sell it until after you shoot some film with it. You may get hooked! :smile:
 
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TSSPro

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Yup- I would agree. Schneider Glass branded for sale through Calumet in Chicago.
 

onre

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Shoot at least some 4x5" before you sell it. Preferably compare it to just about any other monorail and think again about the selling decision.
 

Dan Fromm

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Alan, TSSPro, the lens' trim ring says "Ilex-Calumet" and "Made in U.S.A."

I think we've just found two blind photographers.
 

480sparky

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I wouldn't offer it for sale unless I had at least taken it out for a test drive. Make sure there's no light leaks, the shutter is reasonably accurate etc. Otherwise, the buyer (unless you meet face-to-face) is going to want a steep discount for taking a chance.
 
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Alan Gales

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Alan, TSSPro, the lens' trim ring says "Ilex-Calumet" and "Made in U.S.A."

I think we've just found two blind photographers.

I see said the blind man! :D

I saw the Caltar S and wrote Schneider. I missed the Ilex-Calumet. I must be getting lazy. So it's an Ilex lens. Thanks Dan!

Price wise it won't make much difference though. It will be at the lower end of 210mm lens prices.
 

RSalles

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The Norma in VG condition as yours worths at least 400 USD, plus the lens, which worths 50-150 USD depending how fast you want to sell it.

Renato
 

Chadinko

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I see said the blind man! :D

I saw the Caltar S and wrote Schneider. I missed the Ilex-Calumet. I must be getting lazy. So it's an Ilex lens. Thanks Dan!

Price wise it won't make much difference though. It will be at the lower end of 210mm lens prices.

I have never used one of these cameras but the Ilex lens on my 1949 Speed Graphic -- a 163mm Paragon in a #3 shutter -- is one of the sharpest lenses I own. It's truly amazing.
 

Dan Fromm

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I have never used one of these cameras but the Ilex lens on my 1949 Speed Graphic -- a 163mm Paragon in a #3 shutter -- is one of the sharpest lenses I own. It's truly amazing.

The OP's lens is an f/5.6er, is an entirely different design than your 163 Paragon. That you like yours is nice but irrelevant.
 

Alan Gales

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I have never used one of these cameras but the Ilex lens on my 1949 Speed Graphic -- a 163mm Paragon in a #3 shutter -- is one of the sharpest lenses I own. It's truly amazing.

I'm not familiar with the OP's lens. I figure it is probably a good performer.

I used to be a small time Ebay Seller of photography equipment. Unfortunately for the OP, from what I have seen, Ilex lenses don't usually sell for a lot on Ebay. I had a really nice Ilex 90mm lens once with an accurate shutter (tested with my shutter speed tester). I didn't get much when I sold it on Ebay compared to similar Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikkor, and Fujinon lenses.
 

Dan Fromm

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Alan, toward the end Ilex made modern lenses to compete with Rodenstock and Schneider. Anti-Sironar/Summars, mostly f/4.8 convertibles but some f/5.6 like the OP's. Anti-Super Angulons under a variety of names, all f/8. All said to be very good lenses. IMO they're undervalued relative to German lenses of the '60s and early '70s. Lynn Jones was a strong advocate for them but since he was somewhat unreliable towards the end I tend to discount most of what he says.

Wollensak made a line of taking plasmats too, Pro Raptars, 160/5.6 and 210/5.6. No modern w/a lenses for LF as far as I know. I like my 160/5.6 Pro Raptar. Years ago there was a flurry of interest in them, largely prompted by Andrew Glover's puffery on eBay. Mine didn't come from him, it came from a now defunct optical shop in Rochester. Andrew isn't the only person who bought parts of Wollensak's stock.
 

Alan Gales

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Alan, toward the end Ilex made modern lenses to compete with Rodenstock and Schneider. Anti-Sironar/Summars, mostly f/4.8 convertibles but some f/5.6 like the OP's. Anti-Super Angulons under a variety of names, all f/8. All said to be very good lenses. IMO they're undervalued relative to German lenses of the '60s and early '70s. Lynn Jones was a strong advocate for them but since he was somewhat unreliable towards the end I tend to discount most of what he says.

Wollensak made a line of taking plasmats too, Pro Raptars, 160/5.6 and 210/5.6. No modern w/a lenses for LF as far as I know. I like my 160/5.6 Pro Raptar. Years ago there was a flurry of interest in them, largely prompted by Andrew Glover's puffery on eBay. Mine didn't come from him, it came from a now defunct optical shop in Rochester. Andrew isn't the only person who bought parts of Wollensak's stock.

Thanks for the interesting information, Dan. I wish I had your knowledge! :smile:

The 90mm Ilex that I had was an F/8 lens. It came as part of someone's Cambo monorail kit that I parted out several years ago. The lens and shutter were both in great shape. Perhaps it was a little older than I realized.
 

locutus

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Thats actually a really nice starter kit for shooting 5x4, definitely try to shoot a box of film before you decide to sell it! The lens you have for it is a 'long normal' something like a 60mm in 135 terms, with the rail on that Norma you can focus all the way down to 1:1. Would be a great setup for shooting tabletops etc.

As for the relative merits of the lens, keep in mind that you usually shoot 5x4 at f/22 and almost all LF lenses are perfectly acceptable at that point.
 

Mick Fagan

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We're supposed to be shooting 4x5 at f/22?

In a nutshell, yes.

For a better explanation, go here, scroll down until you get to the Depth of Field versus Diffraction table. Read the text and look at the chart, makes for interesting reading.

http://www.prograf.ru/rodenstock/largeformat_en.html#table1

With the exception of my super wide angle 65mm lens for 4x5" I almost always stop down to f22, f16 with the 65mm for the best trade off of performance, speed and usability.

With the exception of my hand held Razzle 4x5" camera, all of my 4x5" work is done with a tripod.

Mick.
 

480sparky

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In a nutshell, yes.

For a better explanation, go here, scroll down until you get to the Depth of Field versus Diffraction table. Read the text and look at the chart, makes for interesting reading.

http://www.prograf.ru/rodenstock/largeformat_en.html#table1

With the exception of my super wide angle 65mm lens for 4x5" I almost always stop down to f22, f16 with the 65mm for the best trade off of performance, speed and usability.

With the exception of my hand held Razzle 4x5" camera, all of my 4x5" work is done with a tripod.

Mick.

That's all hunky-dorie if you are always shooting with a tripod and shutter speed doesn't matter. But if you think you can only shoot at a certain aperture and you end up missing a shot, then the 'logic' fails miserably.
 

Dan Fromm

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Well, there are no rules about which aperture/shutter speed combinations ought to be used, except that the combination used should give good exposure. But and however, many LF lenses don't reach full coverage until f/22 and that can be a compelling reason to shoot at f/22.

Sparky, about shooting with the camera on a tripod. LF has two advantages over small formats. Larger negative and, with many but not all cameras that make large negatives, movements. Movements require a tripod. Also, shooting with a smallish aperture and slowish film isn't all that consistent with good image quality. Motion (the photographer's) blur and all that, y'know. Another reason to use a tripod.
 

480sparky

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Well, there are no rules about which aperture/shutter speed combinations ought to be used, except that the combination used should give good exposure. But and however, many LF lenses don't reach full coverage until f/22 and that can be a compelling reason to shoot at f/22......

Um.......... that pretty much only applies to shorter FL lenses, up to 75 or 80mm. Once you get to 90mm and up, it's a moot point unless you really need to use a LOT of movements. And the longer FL one goes, the less coverage becomes an issue with 4x5.

........Sparky, about shooting with the camera on a tripod. LF has two advantages over small formats. Larger negative and, with many but not all cameras that make large negatives, movements. Movements require a tripod. Also, shooting with a smallish aperture and slowish film isn't all that consistent with good image quality. Motion (the photographer's) blur and all that, y'know. Another reason to use a tripod.

Nothing I didn't already know........
 

removed account4

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We're supposed to be shooting 4x5 at f/22?

the notion that people with 4x5 cameras are supposed to be following some sort of rule like shooting at f22
is like suggesting that people with 4x5 cameras have to photograph ansel adams-esque landscapes, or people with
graflex slr's or press cameras have to shoot in the dust bowl like margaret bourque white, or crime scene death-scene police crime lab photos like weegee,
of if one has an 8x10 camera, one can only use it with a commecial ektar ( 14" ) and make portraits like karsh, or deadpan like disfarmer
and banquet/ulf cameras you are only allowed to photograph banquets from a ladder like tom yanul or landscapes in tuscany like michael smith ...

the reality ( fortunately ) is the fstop, shutter speed, film type, paper type, chemistry used, tripod, monopod ladder, handheld, plates, &c
is determined by the person using the camera, and there are no rules, unless the person using the camera has made them up for him / herself.
 

Dan Fromm

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Um.......... that pretty much only applies to shorter FL lenses, up to 75 or 80mm. Once you get to 90mm and up, it's a moot point unless you really need to use a LOT of movements. And the longer FL one goes, the less coverage becomes an issue with 4x5.

You're defending a bad position. Some people, not all and you may be one who doesn't, care about image quality in the corners. You've forgotten about tessars and, more generally, lenses shorter than normal for the format they're used on or you don't know what coverage means.
 

Dan Fromm

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Thanks for the interesting information, Dan. I wish I had your knowledge! :smile:

The 90mm Ilex that I had was an F/8 lens. It came as part of someone's Cambo monorail kit that I parted out several years ago. The lens and shutter were both in great shape. Perhaps it was a little older than I realized.

Alan, thanks for the compliment. The obscure and arcane information I collect doesn't make me a better photographer. In the early days of eBay, when few people knew what was what, it helped me buy good lenses at low prices and finance my lens collection by buying and later selling, um, buried treasure. Those days are gone forever.

About y'r 90/8 Ilex. It was a good grade of 90/8 Super Angulon. Not quite up to the latest most best faster and heavier 90s but still a very usable lens.
 

480sparky

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You're defending a bad position. Some people, not all and you may be one who doesn't, care about image quality in the corners. You've forgotten about tessars and, more generally, lenses shorter than normal for the format they're used on or you don't know what coverage means.

Well, if all you want to do is thump your chest and boast about how you know more than others, I'll just leave you to do just that.

I know precisely what coverage means. I've shot LF since the '70s. So if wanna continue playing King of the Mountain, go right ahead. I'll have no part of it.
 

Mick Fagan

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That's all hunky-dorie if you are always shooting with a tripod and shutter speed doesn't matter. But if you think you can only shoot at a certain aperture and you end up missing a shot, then the 'logic' fails miserably.

Sparky, you do in fact have a good point there. With hindsight after reading your response, I do think I could have elaborated slightly more. Which would have possibly answered the question that I answered, more completely to the questioner.

With regard to LF photography, I try to always use the optimum aperture I am able to use under the circumstances I am shooting. Which, and within reason, is generally between f/16 to f/22 and, as mentioned, the camera is almost always on a tripod.

The exception is my Razzle 4x5” camera. Which is a converted Polaroid camera with a longer focal length lens of 150mm compared to the original 127mm. With this camera/lens combination, I have rarely used a tripod with this camera. One time I did was to re-set the cam for focusing, then taking an exposure to confirm that the focus was correct before demounting said camera from the tripod.

This longer length lens does throw up some interesting side effects, one of which is coverage. The lens itself is a Fujinon f/6.3 150mm. Generally I try to use f/11, however, when using a slower film like Ilford FP4+, I mostly use f/8. Apart from the fact the depth of acceptable focus is sort of razor thin, there is the coverage aspect.

Coverage can be greatly affected by close focusing when your fixed body has another lens grafted on, which in the case of my converted Polaroid camera is an issue. When taking portraiture pictures, I generally work on a bust type of portrait, meaning I need to be reasonably close to the subject. In this instance usually I’m between 1.2m to 2m distance and running close to maximum bellows extension.

I have been quite successful with this camera/lens combination for doing hand held portraiture as I have described. But the trade-off is lack of coverage when either wide open, or close to wide open. At an aperture of f/8, and running close to maximum extension, I never get enough coverage. Due to the ability to crop in the enlarger, it really isn’t too much of an issue, so I don’t have any problems.

As a matter of interest, at f/32 the coverage is about there, at f/45 – f/64 I certainly have full coverage, but then I wouldn’t be able to use this camera hand held, which is what it’s all about.

I have and do use apertures that are outside the optimal, or close to optimal aperture, as defined by the manufacturers themselves; there is nothing wrong with doing that. But in the main, if one is using a sheet film camera, then generally, quality of the image is what most practitioners I have ever met are after. As for longer focal lengths not being too much of an issue with 4x5” cameras, that is about right. However, if you use a Telephoto lens, coverage is completely different and markedly less. More so if one uses one of these lenses for portraiture; you should see the outtakes I had when I started using my 400T lens for portraiture on my 4x5” cameras.

I did a web search and was surprised to find that Dean Jones, the inventer/builder of the Razzle cameras, still had clips up; he passed away in December 2014. Living in the same city as Dean, made it pretty easy to have a face to face order for my camera. Also made it easy to hand over the lens I picked for it. I have the same lens always sitting in my folded up Shen Hoa 4x5” camera. First time I have ever had two identical lenses and used them continuously on two cameras.

This is a link to one of dean’s clips, the first camera he shows is almost identical to the one he built for me. If you think that is as easy as it looks, rest assured it is that easy. Even better when loaded with a Grafmatic back and six sheets of film.



Mick.
 
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