4x5 Newbie. Out of focus pictures, am I doing something wrong?

Dan Fromm · Jun 22, 2015

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...afe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=&gws_rd=ssl

RobC · Jun 22, 2015

if your loupe has fixed focus for what it is resting on and your GG is 2mm thick, then you are not focussing on the ground side of of the GG which makes getting exact focus more difficult.

Some loupes can be focussed so that you can focus through the GG onto the actual ground side.

RobC · Jun 22, 2015

I have to say that when I was doing 4x5 I preferred using a reflex viewing hood with a magnifier in it so that I could see the whole GG. I tried a Boss viewing screen which was brighter but more difficult to get exact focus. I then switched back to the original Linhof GG and you could see it just pop into focus with naked eye and even better with the reflex viewer on.

YMMV

shutterfinger · Jun 22, 2015

Grab a digital caliper from Amazon or ebay.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/150mm-ELECT...id=1434998147&sr=8-1&keywords=digital+caliper
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-V...315?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item27d616261b

RobC · Jun 22, 2015

Is part of you test images in focus and part not or is it all out of focus?

Doremus Scudder · Jun 22, 2015

Let's clear some things up here (pun intended):

First, even if your ground glass and film plane positions are off by 1mm, when you focus on anything but a plane parallel to the film, something will be in focus. The test described earlier, i.e., setting up your camera 45° to a flat, patterned wall, making a mark, focusing on that and then checking the negs with a loupe, will tell you whether your film and ground glass planes are in the correct position or not without the need for a micrometer, etc. It is actually more accurate if done correctly than making difficult and bad measurements. Do the test and see if you have a problem or not (and shoot wide open for the test to minimize depth of field).

Focus using a 4x loupe or greater to make sure you have set focus correctly. If your lens is good and the camera steady, there will be a line of sharp focus in your scene somewhere. If it corresponds to your mark, then all is well. If it is in front of your mark, you need to shim your ground glass out a little; if it's behind your mark, then you need to set the glass in closer to the lens by removing shims or modifying your camera (this latter happens very, very rarely).

Now, if there is no area of your negative that is in sharp focus with this test, then there is a problem with camera stability or your lens. Make sure you are examining the negative itself, with a good loupe (8x-10x) and don't rely on scans.

I have a tendency to think that the camera is fine and that there is another issue somewhere...

Anyway, the test is easy and only costs a sheet of film. Do that before you buy an expensive micrometer.

Oh yes, about focusing your loupe on the frosted side of the ground glass. Certainly, this is desirable, but even if your loupe is slightly out of focus, the sharpest image will be when the camera is focused correctly. Having the loupe out of adjustment does not change where you focus, just how sharp the image you observe is when all is focused.

Best,

Doremus

removed account4 · Jun 22, 2015

apugnumpty said:
Hi,

I'm used to Medium format and thought I'd take a look at Large format so got myself a graflocked back 4x5 field camera.

The first shots I put through it where to see if the bellows were ok so I was not bothered about sharpness so I played with the tilt and shift to see what it would do, this was with out of date Ilford FP4. The detail was ok not great. I was using f11 which I thought would be reasonable.
The developed film came out OK and quite contrasty so assumed that the bellows were ok but as I tilted and shifted the focus was a bit iffy any way.

I then ran through some new Kodak Ektar, I kept the camera straight put it on f16 did some straight on DOF tests and tilted slightly and did some more.

Now I've used a whole box of Ektar and the first two I've developed are very soft, compared to what I would get from MF.

I would focus with either the knobs or by pulling the rack until the foreground was what I would think was sharp, then I would check the rest of ground glass to check the focus in the rest of it. Assuming that this was the correct procedure I then put in the holder and take the shot with the desired f stop and shutter speed being care not to jog the tripod or camera with a remote shutter trigger.

Is there something I'm missing to get critical sharpness or are there tricks and tips to nail focus?
Or is there something I should check or test to help nailing the focus issue?

Cheers in advance.

hi

did you get this camera from a private party, off of eBay or from a photo store?
was the lens included with the sale ?
while i may say something which might sound outlandish to some ..
maybe you should look into returning the kit, and look for one that
there aren't issues ... seems to me that the person who sold it
might have sold a lens remounted in a shutter incorrectly ( maybe with shims or without them )
or did something similar to the ground glass ( removed things that affected focus )
and unless the kit was sold at an incredible discount if it was me, i'd return it, and buy something else.
large format cameras are a dime a cheap dozen these days, and if you poke around the apug classifieds
you might find one close to home from someone who is upgrading their gear, &c and won't be sending you
a puzzle or riddle to solve and instead a camera you can load holders with film and get critcially focused images
without worries the first time you use them.

good luck figuring this all out !

john

Nige · Jun 22, 2015

Doremus Scudder said:
Oh yes, about focusing your loupe on the frosted side of the ground glass. Certainly, this is desirable, but even if your loupe is slightly out of focus, the sharpest image will be when the camera is focused correctly. Having the loupe out of adjustment does not change where you focus, just how sharp the image you observe is when all is focused.

I was going to query that, as I use a simple un-adjustable loupe (after pre-focusing by eye) and my GG (Satinsnow) is frosted side to the lens yet I manage sharp photos. I've even done the 'ruler on and angle' test and it was spot on where I focused.

So is this saying, even though I do manage to get it in focus, with a better (adjustable) loupe, I could be viewing a better image through the loupe?

cowanw · Jun 22, 2015

Set up square and do the test Dan suggests. That will tell you if you really have a problem or if you expect to much out of Depth of field. No tilts or shifts until things are working.

Steve Smith · Jun 23, 2015

Nige said:
I was going to query that, as I use a simple un-adjustable loupe (after pre-focusing by eye) and my GG (Satinsnow) is frosted side to the lens yet I manage sharp photos. I've even done the 'ruler on and angle' test and it was spot on where I focused.

So is this saying, even though I do manage to get it in focus, with a better (adjustable) loupe, I could be viewing a better image through the loupe?

I'm sure most people use loupes which are intended to focus on the surface they are sitting on rather than the thickness of a piece of glass away with no real problems.

A loupe doesn't focus there on its own anyway. It's a combination of its lens and your eye. The distance between the two and the state of your close up vision will affect this too.

Steve.

fastw · Jun 23, 2015

All the potential focusing issues keep me from trying the LF. I mainly do portraits and can't imagine how you get the eyes sharp with the super shallow DOF except with some sort of head support. Are the RF LF cameras any better in this respect? Landscapes seem to make more sense. Then I guess it's another challenge and practice makes perfect, right?
Wonder what's the in focus hit rate is for more experienced shooters?
Cheers, Wojtek.

apugnumpty · Jun 23, 2015

I bought this from a guy on eBay, though the deal was done outside of that, though I do have a receipt.
I did explain to the guy if I found a problem I would be speaking to him again. This may be this occasion.

jnanian said:
hi

did you get this camera from a private party, off of eBay or from a photo store?
was the lens included with the sale ?
while i may say something which might sound outlandish to some ..
maybe you should look into returning the kit, and look for one that
there aren't issues ... seems to me that the person who sold it
might have sold a lens remounted in a shutter incorrectly ( maybe with shims or without them )
or did something similar to the ground glass ( removed things that affected focus )
and unless the kit was sold at an incredible discount if it was me, i'd return it, and buy something else.
large format cameras are a dime a cheap dozen these days, and if you poke around the apug classifieds
you might find one close to home from someone who is upgrading their gear, &c and won't be sending you
a puzzle or riddle to solve and instead a camera you can load holders with film and get critcially focused images
without worries the first time you use them.

good luck figuring this all out !

john

pdeeh · Jun 23, 2015

apugnumpty said:
I bought this from a guy on eBay, though the deal was done outside of that,

oops. you've abrogated all the protection eBay affords buyers ... let's hope the seller is going to play fair, if there really is a problem with the camera

apugnumpty · Jun 23, 2015

Right I have done a test on a flat surface and I think something is seriously wrong here.

I looked at the ground glass and focussed on the centre of the wood, according to the glass the edge to edge of the wood was also sharp.
the camera tilt and shifts were locked and the body of the camera was flat on to the surface of the wood.
I assumed that if the GG said it was sharp then the holder (Fidelity - that came with the camera) would also be sharp.

I have no clue what is going on here.

Take a look at the pictures and tell me what the hell is going wrong, so far I think I should ask the seller to take it back.

paul_c5x4 · Jun 23, 2015

Looks like you are doing close-up/macro work - This will exacerbate any small focusing errors. I have noticed a similar problem with one of my cameras.

Yes, it looks like you do have a focus error, but it isn't as far off as you might think. In the absence of accurate measuring equipment, I'd suggest shimming the GG out using some bits snipped from a roll of film.

P.S. Noticed an error in post #22 - Sheet film is coated on to a 0.180mm polyester base, 120 film is on a 0.110mm acetate base, and for completeness, 35mm is on a 0.125 acetate base. (data from Ilord FP4+ datasheet)

chrisaisenbrey · Jun 23, 2015

Just an addition: The book way beyond monochrome of Ralph Lambrecht (he is subscriber of apug) describes a quite easy but precise method to check the focus plane of the screen in a large format camera.

Put a ruler across the back of the camera so that it has a defined position.
Fix a toothpick with some clamp to the ruler so that it touches the screen.
Insert the film holder with some film and check if the toothpick touches the film.

removed account4 · Jun 23, 2015

pdeeh said:
oops. you've abrogated all the protection eBay affords buyers ... let's hope the seller is going to play fair, if there really is a problem with the camera

naaaah, if he bought it with any sort of credit card, or still paypal not as a "gift" ( even outside of ebay it is basically a credit card ) he still has 90+ days to get a full refund, he just needs to call the CC company ( or paypal ) and dispute the purchase
even if the seller gives him grief. the real problem would be if the seller insisted on cash or a money order and in that case .... then the buyer is in hot water.
and in that case a consumer group might be of some help seeing the buyer has a receipt..

apugnumpty said:
I bought this from a guy on eBay, though the deal was done outside of that, though I do have a receipt.
I did explain to the guy if I found a problem I would be speaking to him again. This may be this occasion.

good luck with that, i hope it works out ! the alternative is the seller foots the bill if it is something where a repair shop needs to do a little magic.
i wouldn't do anything with it myself, because the seller could easily suggest it was working perfectly before it was messed with.

RobC · Jun 23, 2015

I know its a pain but do the same test with one of your toyo holders and compare.

With LF it is very difficult to get consistency of focussing anyway and you really need to average out several tests to be sure the error is always there before adjusting anything. But you are heading in the right direction with your test. It's all part of the learning curve with LF.

removed account4 · Jun 23, 2015

maybe there is a local LF user the OP can bring his camera + lens + holders to ...
swap lenses + holders ... it would be easier to see if it is lens, camera, holders or user error.

i've never heard of all sorts of focus tests as being part of the LF learning curve.
maybe i was lucky ?

RobC · Jun 23, 2015

it is with some used equipment when you don't know exactly what you've got and whether its been fiddled with.

And if you are having problems, doing the tests gives you confidence in your equipment settings once they are performing as they should and teaches you how precise you need to be to get it right.

Gimenosaiz · Jun 23, 2015

Hello!
I've got a similar problem (if not the same). Although I use a fixed loupe, my main suspect is the holder. I've eight holders and ... a ratio of 40% of succesful sharp photographs. However I'll do some test with a different loupe. Does anybody use a camera lens? Like a 50mm/f2 Yashica ML ...

Regards
Antonio

RobC · Jun 23, 2015

I'm just going to throw in the warning again. Do not adjust any settings or shims etc unless you are 100% certain that is what the problem is.
The adjustments for accuracy are not a trivial exercise and need extreme accuracy measured with a micrometer. And if its shims you need then you need to measure old shim thickness and calculate required new shim thickness and source them. Doing this is a Royal PITA and if it can be avoided then it should be at all costs. And you need to number shims being taken off and their position because if they are not all the same thickness you'll get it wrong.

I suspect that the small depth difference from your focus test could just be your own focussing error but a cm of focus shift is trivial unless you are doing macro work.

Note: Depth of focus with macro work is very great so its damn near impossible to get perfect focus. Do a test on something on the horizon/infinity such as a tree and depth of focus will be at it minimum. But this introduces another potential discovery in that many large format lenses don't work particularly well at infinity. Most of them are optimal for closer work.

Ian Grant · Jun 23, 2015

First you need to ascertain that the lens is OK, rule out any issue there. Remember that it's sharpest at f22 across the whole frame. It's not unknown for lenses to have issues if someone has swapped cells, may be not used the right rer cell.

I'd help you test but I'm a bit to far away when I'm back in the UK next week. Make sure there's no creep with the focus bed, that everything is locked tight. It's just possible your moving the rer extension slightly when you fit the film holder.

Ian

Bill Burk · Jun 23, 2015

chrisaisenbrey said:
Just an addition: The book way beyond monochrome of Ralph Lambrecht (he is subscriber of apug) describes a quite easy but precise method to check the focus plane of the screen in a large format camera.

Put a ruler across the back of the camera so that it has a defined position.
Fix a toothpick with some clamp to the ruler so that it touches the screen.
Insert the film holder with some film and check if the toothpick touches the film.

Oh sure! That makes sense. With the toothpick pointing from somewhere in the middle of the camera to the focal plane... With the lensboard off you can see right through the front where the toothpick is reaching.

RobC · Jun 23, 2015

And at F22 any specific smals detail in the neg won't look as focussed/sharp as on a MF lens at f8. But when you enlarge the whole 4x5 neg you will enlarge it less so you need to be printing to see what you are really getting. i.e. not comparing MF negs with LF negs at a single very small area of the negative.

4x5 Newbie. Out of focus pictures, am I doing something wrong?

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