4x5 Field purchase

[RoBBo]

So I'm looking for a 4x5 folder with decent movements, in my price range seem to be Shen Hao, Tachihara or maybe a used Zone VI.
I'm curious mostly about the rigidity of the Tachihara. I know they're a good deal lighter than the Shen Hao, but how does this effect rigidity, and is it anything to worry about?
Also...where the hell can I get one? Badger Graphic seems to be sold out. I'd really prefer the black rosewood over the other, since I feel it looks a lot less gaudy, is there anything major that changes in it because of the type of wood used?

Also a bit curious about the differences between the generations of Zone VIs and how to identify them.

And the lens I want...
I'm look for a slight wide to wide, fast lens for not a great deal of money, and an especially cheap normal to slight long lens, speed is not so relevant with that one.
I do a lot of night landscape type work. What should I be looking for?

 

[Nick Zentena]

Most of the lenses in the 150mm to 210mm range will be F/5.6 and not a great deal of money. FWIW I got a Fuji-W 150mm for about $160 from KEH. The newer ones in Copal shutters tend to be more expensive but not a lot more.

For the slight wide it depends on how much movement you want. Various 90mm but the faster ones are bigger and more expensive. The 125mm lenses don't have massive coverage but won't be that expensive. Harder to find.

 

[Ole]

Since I'm considered to be something of an expert in "old and cheap"...

"Slight wide to wide" I would guess is in the 90 to 120mm range - 120mm is about as wide as a 35mm on 35mm film. "Fast and Wide" is synonymous with "Big and Heavy" or "Modern and Expensive". A 125mm which barely covers could be a possibility, or an older 120mm WA - like a f:6.8 Angulon. In that case I'd recommend you get a 90mm Angulon or similar too; they're surprisingly good wide open, and the 120mm offers lots of coverage.

If you go for a 120 to 125mm as "Wide", the difference to a 150mm is too small for most. Look for a good 180mm; like a Symmar. The more letters after the name they have the more expensive they are, but the difference is not really noticable in real life (rather like cars, or lawyers).

 

[RoBBo]

I used a 180 Caltar (Maybe it was a 210?) for a few months and found it far too narrow for what I'd like to do.
And yes, 90-120 is the range I'd be looking in, and I think a 135 would be my absolute limit. I've seen a good deal of 135 5.6 lenses, I think Caltars and Fujis, do any of these cover 4x5? They're all marked as 2x3 on KeH...
Wide open, coverage and sharpness don't matter that much, as long as it's good enough for me to focus with, and will perform better once stopped down. It's only gotta be fast enough for me to tell what the hell I'm doing on the GG, I use large DoF and long exposure times anyways.
6.8 Angulon sounds like it might be 'good enough', since I don't think I can afford a 90 4.5 hulking piece of glass that'd weigh more than my camera. Do they/did they make those in both 120 and 90?

 

[Nick Zentena]

Plenty of 135mm that cover 4x5. You just have to check.

 

[david b]

I am using a Schneider APO Symmar 135mm on my Zone VI and love the angle. It covers 4x5 with no problem.

 

[Ole]

6.8 Angulon sounds like it might be 'good enough', since I don't think I can afford a 90 4.5 hulking piece of glass that'd weigh more than my camera. Do they/did they make those in both 120 and 90?

They did - and I use 90, 120, 165 and 210mm Angulons. For a while I had two 90mm's, and made a "comparison shootout" with them to see if there was any difference between pre- and postwar versions. I concluded that the difference was minimal (except for coating), but that the later versions had slightly more even sharpness out to the edge of 4x5" (I tested on 5x7" film, actually 13x18cm which is a touch bigger than that) but goes unsharp much faster outside that. Dead Link Removed yet again...

 

[Monophoto]

The Zone VI camera history is complicated, but it generally can be divided into five eras (for the 4x5 model):

1. Cameras made by Tachihara (78-80) - 12" bellows, front and rear swing and tilt, with a Zone VI nameplate, nickel-plated hardware

2. Cameras made by Wista (80-85) - 12" bellows, front and rear swing and tile, front rise and fall, nameplate said "Zone VI Studios", with Zone VI modifying the Wista standard to strengthen the baseboard

3. Cameras made by Wisner (85-88) - mahogany, 16" bellows, full movements, nameplate said "Zone VI Studios, Made by Wisner Manufacturing"

4. Cameras made by Zone VI (88-2001) - 22" bellows, full movements, gold-plated brass hardware, with serial numbers in the range of 1000-4500 (for Mahogany) or 9000 (for Black Walnut)

5. Cameras made by Calumet (Zone VI Lightweight, 2001-2006) - 22" bellows, full movements, black anodized aluminum hardware, mahogany

There were also some 8x10 cameras during the Zone VI and Zone VI Lightweight eras.

Incidentally, serial numbers are engraved on the tripod mount.

 

[Andrew Moxom]

RoBBo also take a look at the 'Art Works' cameras. I was only made aware of them recently and they look very good value for money. They are made in Japan, not China, look very well made, and are reasonably priced.
http://www.fineartphotosupply.com/workscamera.htm
I do not have one of these as I started out with a Wista and then a Canham DLC. If I had known about this camera when I made my purchases, I would have seriously looked at them. They only weigh 3.5 pounds!

 

[Nick Zentena]

Isn't that a rebranded Tachihara?

 

[Ole]

There's also the Argentum Cameras, made (to order) in Hungary.

At EUR 750 for a new 4x5" with all movements, capable of using lenses from 65mm to 240mm (at least), it's worth considering.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Right now, given the exchange rates, that makes the Argentum over $1000 USD. The best bang for the buck on the market is the Shen Hao. Great little camera, very versatile and durable.

 

[walter23]

The Shen Hao is a great camera. I'm very glad I got it instead of the tachihara or one of the billion other folders out there. The range of movements on it is really impressive - I've made good use of almost all of them, too. For example, for this shot, I used quite a bit of rear shift and front rise to get the perspective I wanted on this tunnel (digital SLR photograph of my print).

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At times I've used front rise/fall and rear shift to get the perspective or composition I wanted, plus tilt & swing movements for focus. As far as I know this is the only economical folder that can do all these movements - the ebony is expensive, and others simply lack them. It's like almost having the capabilities of a monorail, and I can outdo any of my lenses (moderate coverage rodenstocks - grandagon 90 and apo-sironar N 210). The only way you would run out of movements would be with expensive huge coverage lenses like the schneider super angulon XLs or some of the heavy 8x10 lenses. I wouldn't give up my shenhao for anything. The only major limitation is bellows draw, but I've done > 1:1 macro using my 90mm lens and close to 1:1 using my 210mm lens (maybe 1:1.5).

The only idiosycracy with mine was that the rear standard didn't quite lock down as tightly as I wanted - a trip to the hardware store for an extra washer, and a tiny bit of hand-work (no tools) later, and it was fixed. I'm no machinist and this was my first view camera, so if I could handle this, you can as well. Basically the rear movements (shift & swing) lock down by friction imposed by a little rotating cog with a lever attached to it, and the plastic (teflon?) washer here might not be thick enough to let you tighten it up as much as needed, so you need to add another small washer / spacer. It's very easy - you just spin a little lock down lever assembly off, add the extra washer, and spin the lever back on. As I've said, I'm a desk job guy, not a machinist, so it's a pretty easy task.

 

[Ole]

Right now, given the exchange rates, that makes the Argentum over $1000 USD.

The "Excursor" is EUR 550.-, but a little more limited movements.

I was on the verge of ordering an Excursor 8x10" Vertical only, but ended up buying a second-hand Gandolfi Traditional instead. It was significantly more expensive than a brand new Argentum...

 

[Nick Zentena]

The big benefit of the Shen isn't so much the starting price but all the other add ons. From a dealer they tend to be fairly reasonable. Direct from the factory they tend to be almost too cheap not to consider.

 

[jmcd]

Tachihara

I have used a Wisner Technical for about 15 years. Very recently, I acquired a Tachihara 4x5. I myself cannot imagine wishing for or needing a more rigid camera, it is plenty rigid enough including for windy conditions, at least from my view. 210mm is about as long as I go with 4x5, and I only wish I had bought a Tachihara about 15 years ago. It is so light weight as to be a pleasure to carry and get into position. Movements are more than adequate for my work. The camera is nicely made, and inexpensive.

Through Midwest Photo Exchange, I bought a regular finish model with the chrome hardware, and I do not think it is gaudy in the least. At the very least, I think the Tachihara is an excellent choice.

 

[Jon Shiu]

Hi, I've been using a Tachihara for about 12 years. It seems plenty rigid to me and I've used it with a 240mm Caltar IIN in Copal 3 shutter, which is pretty heavy. I do long exposures at night at the seashore and it has been fine.

Jon

 

[RoBBo]

Hi, I've been using a Tachihara for about 12 years. It seems plenty rigid to me and I've used it with a 240mm Caltar IIN in Copal 3 shutter, which is pretty heavy. I do long exposures at night at the seashore and it has been fine.

Jon

That's the reply I was really looking for.
Just needed to know it could handle long exposures with something heavy on it.
Alright, looks like I'll be nabbing a Tachi' from MPEX, with chrome. It's just that bright red wood with those shiny gold finished parts that looks gaudy to me.

Still have a few questions about lenses though...
There are a few lenses I've come across that I have a few questions about.
Nikkor-W 100mm f/5.6. Will it cover 4x5 with some slight movements?

I found a Sinaron 90mm f/4.5, which I know is quite heavy, and ought to be quite expensive, but the gods might be favoring me...Only question is, it's on an odd board, or atleast, odd to me, a DB Auto Apperture shutter, and I just wanted to make sure I'd be able to take it off that and put it in a normal Copal, without some weird freak thing happening.

Congo Lenses in general, I've never heard of them, are they decent? And a Congo 210 f4.5, anything faster than 5.6 w/4x5 I generally worry wont cover, will this? (I don't need this speed with this length lens, but it could be cheap so why not?)


Schneider Kreuznach 135mm f/5.6, again, coverage? This one I'm pretty confident in, but just want to make sure...


Zeiss 115mm f/4.5 Tessar, coverage, seems real iffy to me here, but if it covers well enough, this would be exactly what I want...so...does it?

 

[Nick Zentena]

Still have a few questions about lenses though...
There are a few lenses I've come across that I have a few questions about.
Nikkor-W 100mm f/5.6. Will it cover 4x5 with some slight movements?

Not at all.

Congo Lenses in general, I've never heard of them, are they decent? And a Congo 210 f4.5, anything faster than 5.6 w/4x5 I generally worry wont cover, will this? (I don't need this speed with this length lens, but it could be cheap so why not?)

Quality is rumoured to vary wildly. Good ones are okay but with the low cost of 210mm I'm not sure you'll save much going with a Congo. I think this should be a tessar which should cover easily.

Schneider Kreuznach 135mm f/5.6, again, coverage? This one I'm pretty confident in, but just want to make sure...

Which one?

Zeiss 115mm f/4.5 Tessar, coverage, seems real iffy to me here, but if it covers well enough, this would be exactly what I want...so...does it?

Tessars tend to cover the focal length. Maybe a touch more but not a lot more. I wouldn't count on a 115mm Tessar covering 4x5.

 

[Nick Zentena]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/36862-USA/Nikon_1309_105mm_f_5_6_Nikkor_W_Lens.html

I take it back. The 105mm Nikon almost covers.

 

[HerrBremerhaven]

You would probably get more room for movements out of a modern 90mm than out of that 100mm Nikkor. With the 135mm later model (chrome or black ring Copal #0 stock) Schneider, you should get near 190mm to 200mm. I have a Symmar-S at 135mm, and it actually works fairly well wide open with some extreme movements for selective focus; many of these are good choices.

The Schneider website has all the information on older lenses within their site, many with a PDF you can download. Rodenstock has slightly less information. Specifications on Nikkor and Fujinon are tougher to find, but possible. My latest PDF of Nikkor lenses shows the 105mm f5.6 at 155mm coverage, stopped down to f22.

The comments I have seen about Congo lenses is that quality can be variable. You might get a really nice example, or you might get one that renders overall slightly soft images. There are many six element 210mm f5.6 lenses from Rodenstock, Schneider, Fujinon, and Nikkor on the used market, and the difference from f4.5 to f5.6 is barely noticeable on the ground glass at this focal range.

Unless that Sinar DB set-up is really low cost, you might be better off getting something already in a Copal shutter. Just the price of a Copal might erase any savings, and with a Tachihara, you would not be able to use the Sinar DB directly.

Only real downside of the Tachihara is not being able to use a regular lever wind rollfilm back, since you need to remove the ground glass. You could always use one of the slide in rollfilm holders, if you needed/wanted that capability.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat
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[reggie]

This is a nice starter 4x5. I used one of these for general purpose landscape, etc. photography. Plenty of movements and bellows draw. Crrently, the bidding is very low. Based on Monophoto's reply, this would be a 2nd genration camera in nice condigion. Take a lookg at the photos.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130127989736

-R

 

[John Kasaian]

Just get an 8x10 and be done with it!

 

[RoBBo]

Just get an 8x10 and be done with it!

Haha.
I'll get to it, I actually was planning on picking up both this summer but my funds took an unforeseeable hit.
Can't skip 4x5 though, as really, some things I just can't be bothering with an 8x10 for, just as some things I can't be bothering with 4x5, and others I can't be bothering with 6x6...
I just figure, if it's not worth twisting the lens on my 35, it's not worth taking the picture.

 

[david b]

I've got a Zone VI 4x5 for sale.