4x5 cameras small as 9x12

vjuliano · Dec 2, 2021

Hi

I have an unbranded German prewar folding 9x12 plate camera, and it is very small when all closed up, and super light as well. Its not terribly larger than a Kodak 616 folding camera.

Now my 4x5 is a Graflex Speedview, which is considerably larger and heavier.

My question is are there any 4x5 cameras that are small like the 9x12?

Thanks

Vaughn · Dec 2, 2021

Calumet (Gowland) PocketView 4x5. A rail camera -- about one kilogram with a Caltar IIN 150/5.6 on it. My Calumet version was the lightest (fewer movements, non-rotating back).

Not a camera for everyone (not for most people, probably), but it has served me well. Light enough to keep on the tripod and hold in one hand while walking around (I put a waterproof stuff-sack over the camera to protect the bellows from branches, etc). This keeps it very accessable, but it can fold up into a nice flat, tight package, too. Lacks a lot of the bells and whistles that many prefer. I bought mine new from Calumet in 1982 (give or take a year) for $220.

http://www.bnphoto.org/bnphoto/LFN/CamProf_GowlandPocketView.htm

Otherwise some of the Japanese wood field cameras were very light. For example, the Horseman Woodman 4x5 was about 1.5 kilograms, but only a little over 300mm of bellows draw (about the same as my PocketView).

vjuliano · Dec 2, 2021

Ok thanks. I know there are some small collapsible view cameras, but I was hoping for something more in the small foldable form factor. The horseman is light but it is still quite large.

I suspect it would have to be prewar as well, before the standardization on the graflok back.

AgX · Dec 2, 2021

I do not get the point of this thread, as 4x5" and 9x12cm are formats of no size difference enough to affect the overall size of a respective camera substantially.
What am I overlooking? I am thinking of cameras of same design of course.

vjuliano · Dec 2, 2021

Yes, they are almost the exact same film size, but its difficult to get 9x12 film. You can not use 4x5 film in 9x12 holders or 4x5 holders in these cameras. I would like a 4x5 camera that is small like 9x12. All 4x5 cameras I find seem to be substantially larger. I am asking if anyone knows of a small folding one.

Nitroplait · Dec 2, 2021

vjuliano said:
Hi

I have an unbranded German prewar folding 9x12 plate camera, and it is very small when all closed up, and super light as well. Its not terribly larger than a Kodak 616 folding camera.

Now my 4x5 is a Graflex Speedview, which is considerably larger and heavier.

My question is are there any 4x5 cameras that are small like the 9x12?

Thanks

A photo of your 9x12 (with some object for size) would help understanding what size/form factor we are talking about.

vjuliano · Dec 2, 2021

Here are some pics of camera with standard Graflex 4x5 film holder for scale, and one next to a Speedview.

vjuliano · Dec 2, 2021

Its a great little camera that is easy to throw in a bag and take with me, as opposed to the Graflex, which is a bit of a beast to just carry around.

maltfalc · Dec 2, 2021

easiest option is probably going to be cutting 4x5 film down to 9x12.

Donald Qualls · Dec 2, 2021

See if you can find a good set of photos of a KW Patent Etui -- widely called the smallest large format camera ever made. I owned one for a while; it was about half the overall volume of that square box plate camera, but still took a 9x12 plate or film (with film sheath). I could carry the camera in a suit jacket pocket and three plate holders in the other pocket.

There will never be a 4x5 camera that small, because as illustrated in a previous post, the Patent Etui, when folded, was actually about the same size (barely thicker) than a 4x5 film holder.

If you're looking for film for 9x12, there are (IIRC) two choices of 100 speed films available from Freestyle, maybe one from B&H. This, however, was the standard large format size in Europe for decades (hence why so many plate cameras are in that size), and there were more choices available in that market than in North America last time I bought film that size -- even one or two color emulsions. I'd suggest Fotoimpex; they ship internationally, and if you buy several boxes of film, the shipping doesn't sting quite as badly relative to the product cost. Buy a box or two from Freestyle first, see if you actually like it, and if you do, then look at Fotoimpex.

AgX · Dec 2, 2021

vjuliano said:
would like a 4x5 camera that is small like 9x12. All 4x5 cameras I find seem to be substantially larger.

Interesting point, I was not aware of. Now I understand your issue.

gone · Dec 2, 2021

Welcome to the world of folders. The cameras are much smaller and lighter than anything like your Speed Graphic, which according to my leaky memory, was quite a bit heavier than the Crown models. So you're going in the right direction, smaller and lighter.

Folders will take great photos. You lose the movements of a 4x5, but that's not what those cameras were designed for. They were used to make contact prints, so you're usually going to get good to great lenses on them. There wouldn't be any of this enlarging stuff, where you can sharpen up things w/ a really good enlarger lens.

I would just cut down 4x5 film, that way you have a bigger selection of films to choose from, and you won't be limited to one or two emulsions.

AgX · Dec 2, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I'd suggest Fotoimpex; they ship internationally, and if you buy several boxes of film, the shipping doesn't sting quite as badly relative to the product cost.

Both Adox and Foma offer 9x12cm as standard format.

Alternatively one could buy 4x5" sheets and cut them down oneself to 9x12cm.
(Get yourself a small guillotine cutter and make proprietery arrests for the two dimensions.)

Ian Grant · Dec 2, 2021

vjuliano said:
Here are some pics of camera with standard Graflex 4x5 film holder for scale, and one next to a Speedview.

That's alarge 9x12 camera compared to some others.

A KW Patent Etui 9x12 alongside a PacemakerCrown Graphic.

The same Patent Etui closed alongside a Rodenstock 9x12.

As well as Adox and Foma Ilford also offer 9x12 sheet film as a standard size.

Ian

Vaughn · Dec 2, 2021

Perhaps something then along the lines of a converted Polaroid cameras? Still not pocket size, though. People have made cameras that are basically a 4x5 camera back and a fixed wide angle lens in a shutter (or pinhole for even smaller package.)

Donald Qualls · Dec 2, 2021

Unfortunately, the Ilford and Adox are less commonly seen in the USA. Freestyle doesn't appear to offer it even in their rebadged .EDU Ultra 100. When I first started using 9x12, I could still get a couple other B&W emulsions and at least one C-41 in that size from US vendors.

grat · Dec 2, 2021

It would make the camera slightly bulkier, but I have seen adapters (3d printed, mainly) that allow the use of 4x5 backs with 9x12 cameras.

Another option would be something like the WillTravel or the Chroma Snapshot.

John Wiegerink · Dec 3, 2021

vjuliano said:
Yes, they are almost the exact same film size, but its difficult to get 9x12 film. You can not use 4x5 film in 9x12 holders or 4x5 holders in these cameras. I would like a 4x5 camera that is small like 9x12. All 4x5 cameras I find seem to be substantially larger. I am asking if anyone knows of a small folding one.

I feel your pain on finding film. It's almost as hard as finding the right film holder for 9x12cm cameras. If you search you can find Foma 100, Foma 400(?) Ilford Ortho, FP4+, HP5+, Delta 100 and pretty soon Shanghai GP3 in 100 and 400 speed in 9X12cm. Color 9X12cm is a different ballgame entirely and you'll have to trim 4X5 to use it in a 9X12cm holder. I have a very nice red model Patent Etui 9X12 that fits in the palm of your hand. It's unbelievably small for its format size. Love the Patent Etui and It works great with slide in 120 roll film holders. I usually shoot 9X12cm B&W, but load color slide film in one of my roll film backs. Works best on a tripod, but with practice it can be a big point and shoot also. JohnW

Bill Burk · Dec 3, 2021

Converted Polaroids make for a good small 4x5
The handle side tends to be a bit of wasted space
And the back tends to be deeper than it would have to have been (if the camera had been designed as 4x5 from the start, it could have folded the bellows more).
I think a Patent Etui type design would be awesome.

Ian Grant · Dec 3, 2021

Bill Burk said:
I think a Patent Etui type design would be awesome.

One down side to the Patent Etui is its weight, being lighter makes it harder to hand hold at slower shuttervspeeds. Regardless of the format mass makes a difference when working hand held, the small light weight Kodak disc cameras failed for this reason, as did the l10 cameras (smaller version of 110 - the original was 4" wide roll film).

I've not been able tp use my 9x12 Patent Etui, it's in Turkey at the moment but it'll come back to the UK soon and I'll start using it ocassionally. and compare it to one of my heavier 9x12 cameras.

Ian

Algo después · Dec 3, 2021

John Wiegerink said:
I feel your pain on finding film. It's almost as hard as finding the right film holder for 9x12cm cameras.

I was in the same situation as the OP. I got a Zeiss Ikon Maximar 207/7 last year with 7 filmholders. So far I only shoot with X Ray film and RA4 Fuji Crystal paper, of course, cutting it to size. At first it was fun but it becomes more and more tedious to deal with scratches in X-RAY film, no matter how careful you are. In addition, my long-used filmholders have started to sag a bit (not all of them) and to produce emerging scratches every time I shoot.

Don't get me wrong, I love the atmosphere that the 135mm Tessar lens transmits, that people come to ask you why you photograph with a museum camera, etc. but def it has been painful to get new filmholders, even considering that the ones of this model are the most common.

So I`m interested in reading the alternatives that may be proposed in this thread.

Ilich

John Wiegerink · Dec 3, 2021

Bill Burk said:
Converted Polaroids make for a good small 4x5
The handle side tends to be a bit of wasted space
And the back tends to be deeper than it would have to have been (if the camera had been designed as 4x5 from the start, it could have folded the bellows more).
I think a Patent Etui type design would be awesome.

A few years back I built two cameras based on the Polaroid 110A & B cameras. One with a Graflok 4X5 back and the other with a Polaroid 108 holder. The cameras worked perfect and the 127mm f4.7 Ysarex lens was very sharp with high contrast. The only drawback is they are heavy, awkward and not very pocketable. That said, they are built like a brick outhouse and would last into the next century. Given the choice I'd take a nice Crown or Super Speed Graphic any day. Just my opinion of course. JohnW

John Wiegerink · Dec 3, 2021

Algo después said:
I was in the same situation as the OP. I got a Zeiss Ikon Maximar 207/7 last year with 7 filmholders. So far I only shoot with X Ray film and RA4 Fuji Crystal paper, of course, cutting it to size. At first it was fun but it becomes more and more tedious to deal with scratches in X-RAY film, no matter how careful you are. In addition, my long-used filmholders have started to sag a bit (not all of them) and to produce emerging scratches every time I shoot.

Don't get me wrong, I love the atmosphere that the 135mm Tessar lens transmits, that people come to ask you why you photograph with a museum camera, etc. but def it has been painful to get new filmholders, even considering that the ones of this model are the most common.

So I`m interested in reading the alternatives that may be proposed in this thread.

Ilich

I would never use my 9X12cm cameras if I had to chop film to use them, but I do use them often with bought Foma and Ilford films in 9X12cm. It's just as easy as shooting 4X5 that way. Plus, it gives you the feeling of really stepping back into the past. JohnW

reddesert · Dec 3, 2021

The difference in size isn't just because one is 9x12 cm and the other is 4x5". The film sizes are quite close. The issue is also that the 9x12 is a plate camera that I think doesn't have conveniences like a ground glass back held by leaf springs on the side, or accepting international standard film holders. These are two of the things that drive up the size of the Speed Graphic by comparison.

Bill Burk · Dec 4, 2021

Ian Grant said:
One down side to the Patent Etui is its weight, being lighter makes it harder to hand hold at slower shuttervspeeds. Regardless of the format mass makes a difference when working hand held, the small light weight Kodak disc cameras failed for this reason, as did the l10 cameras (smaller version of 110 - the original was 4" wide roll film).

I've not been able tp use my 9x12 Patent Etui, it's in Turkey at the moment but it'll come back to the UK soon and I'll start using it ocassionally. and compare it to one of my heavier 9x12 cameras.

Ian

For backpacking, I would be open to the idea of a locally-sourced mass device. For example, a lightweight folding box that can attach to tripod mount with a stretchy balloon-like inside that you can fill with a handful of dirt and secure contents without shifting, then open and shake out to pack for hiking. I have tried hanging my camera bag from tripod hook but it oscillates.

4x5 cameras small as 9x12

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