35mm C41 Film Selling Very Well

Henning Serger · Sep 21, 2021

Hello Angus,

Agulliver said:
It is not just one shop. We know from Henning's info that demand for C41 colour films started to rise dramatically in 2017 and has continued to do so despite the pandemic.

not even despite the pandemic: Interestingly we've seen also / even an accelerated demand for several film products during the pandemic, and caused by the pandemic: Because of the lockdown lots of people have had the time and motivation to get deeper into film shooting. For example the demand for home self developing materials have got a severe push.

Agulliver said:
Even before the pandemic there was a worldwide backlog of hundreds of thousands of films.

That is wrong. But fortunately in the other direction : In summer 2019 we had an international backorder amount for films of more than 30 million (!!) units. Backorders only!

Agulliver said:
Fuji are more secretive but no doubt have their own problems.

Their problem is generally the same as Kodak's main problem: Both failed completely in mid- and long-term market research and were completely surprised by the strong increasing demand.
Especially Fujifilm should have known much better that such a strong revival is possible as they have seen it first and already some years ago with the exploding demand for their instax cameras and films (Fujifilm is meanwhile selling more instax cameras every year than all digital camera manufacturers combined are selling digital cams = the market for instant film cameras is bigger (in units) than the market for dedicated digital cameras).
Now Fujifilm has to change direction again, and that takes time for them as they are a huge and slower moving company: Fujifilm is like a big "oil tanker" which needs much time for accelerating, slowing down and turns. Fujifilm is the only remaining company in the film business which makes a revenue of more than 1 billion dollars with analogue products every year.
Fujifilm's analogue business alone is much, much bigger than all other film and film equipment manufacturers combined. And Fujifilm's film business has double the size of their digital photo business.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Sep 21, 2021

Agulliver said:
Portra and Ektar are usually in stock because they sell in smaller numbers.

Yes, that is one reason.
The other one is that the production of professional film is done with priority, because Kodak (and the film manufacturers in general) want that the increasing number of professional photographers using film (yes, that is the case) have the films for their professional projects.

Agulliver said:
It is Color Plus, Gold and Fuji C41 films which have had trouble keeping up with demand. And it pre-dates the pandemic.

Correct.

Agulliver said:
Kodak explicitly have stated that they needed to invest a lot of money into increasing production facilities to keep up with demand - and that was the reason for at least one of the price increases.

Increasing production facilities means film confectioning / converting. That has been the bottleneck as Kodak (and Fujifilm) had mainly decreased these facilities / capacities in the past during the time when film demand decreased. The film coating capacities are still huge and big enough for an even much, much higher demand.

Agulliver said:
Not only do I listen to what Henning says, with his great contacts within the industry. I also talk with several photo/camera retailers around the UK who tell me exactly the same thing. They are unable to get hold of Color Plus, Gold, Fuji 160 and 400 (I know the latter is now cancelled). The suppliers who actually sell Kodak film to the retailers (they're not able to deal with K-A directly) report the same thing, unable to get sufficient supplies of Color Plus, Gold and sometimes Ektachrome as it was way more popular than expected. Some retailers have been waiting *two years* for unfulfilled 35mm and 120 C41 film orders from suppliers. These same retailers tell me that some time around late 2017 or early 2018 demand for colour film sharply increased and has remained at that high level. Kodak's B&W films have been affected too, albeit to a lesser extent. Ilfrod and Foma managed to keep up with demand is the increase in demand for B&W film was less than that for colour film.

All correct, and the same pattern can be seen almost identically in North America, Europe and Asia (and meanwhile also in Japan), which are the main markets for film.

Best regards,
Henning

Ben 4 · Sep 21, 2021

So what is film "confectioning," as opposed to coating?

Henning Serger · Sep 21, 2021

koraks said:
It's because they are off, of you compare against C41. Individual channel gamma's are different for ECN2 film stocks, because the characteristics of the duplicating medium are different from the response curve of RA4 paper. Translated into today's world of scanners and digital processing: all (consumer) film scanners expect C41 curves, but ECN2 curves are quite different. This results in color accuracy problems with most scanners and software used. In principle this can all be corrected in digital post processing, but it's quite a chore to set up a reliable color profile for this. Hence the many examples of oddly greenish ECN2 scans, weird magenta/green crossover etc.

+1.

Best regards,
Henning

MattKing · Sep 21, 2021

Ben 4 said:
So what is film "confectioning," as opposed to coating?

Slitting and cutting to size, edge printing, loading into cassettes or marrying with backing paper and rolling on to spools, packaging, boxing.
All in absolute darkness in a dust free, temperature and humidity controlled environment of course.
All the stuff that costs as much or more than making the film in the first place!

Henning Serger · Sep 21, 2021

Ben 4 said:
So what is film "confectioning," as opposed to coating?

Coating:
The emulsion is coated onto the base material (triacetate or PET).
After that you have a big roll of film (or photo paper), which is called "master-roll" (Kodak term), "parent roll" (Ilford term) or "Jumbo Rolle" (Agfa, InovisCoat and ADOX term).
This huge roll is mostly about 1 to 1.42 meters wide (dependent on the manufacturer and used machine), and can be up to 2.000 meters (3.000m) long.
But that raw film is of course unusable in that condition for you as a photographer.
Therefore the next step is needed, "confectioning" or also called converting / finishing:

This big roll has firstly to be cut in several parts, so called "pancakes": Parts of 35mm width for 35mm film, of 61.5 mm width for roll film and of the width for sheet film.
Then the 35mm film pancakes needs
- perforation
- exposure of the film type and numbers
- cutting to the right film length
- cutting of the film start and end
- spooling into the 35mm cassette
- packaging of the cassettes into a plastic canister and then a cardbord box.

The roll film pancakes needs
- exposure of the film type and numbers
- cutting to the length of film
- combining the film with the backing paper
- packaging of the rollfilms into a foil, and then into a cardbord box.

All these steps need very sophisticated and complex / expensive machinery. I have seen these machine lines in operation at several film manufacturers. All fully automated.
For example the 35mm film lines at the big manufacturers have an output of 1 completely finished 35mm film per second (!!).

Best regards,
Henning

Adrian Bacon · Sep 22, 2021

braxus said:
I was trying to get some Portra 160 and Ektar 100 in 35mm 5 paks. One store has one, but not the other. Another store has neither. Seeing down the list many color 35mm films are out of stock. Is this because of Covid, or more because Millenials are shooting this stuff like crazy now, along with us only diehards? I was forced to choose some rolls in 120 instead, which is still in stock.

35mm film is selling very well, AND Kodak has been having production/supply chain issues. They’ve started production back up of the portras with the new canister end caps and it’s started to trickle out, so we should start to see inventory levels come up over the next month or two.

kuparikettu · Sep 22, 2021

@Henning Serger do you see Fuji getting back to manufacturing motion picture film stocks (ECN-2 or E-6)? As far as I know, those sales have skyrocketed as well. Kodak is having issues supplying enough 16mm film (especially Vision3 500T), apparently they even had to give to their clients some contacts of their private customers who had bough larger quantities as they themselves had none available to sell.
FilmoTec is apparently going to get into color negative motion picture film business next year....

Henning Serger · Sep 23, 2021

kuparikettu said:
@Henning Serger do you see Fuji getting back to manufacturing motion picture film stocks (ECN-2 or E-6)? As far as I know, those sales have skyrocketed as well. Kodak is having issues supplying enough 16mm film (especially Vision3 500T), apparently they even had to give to their clients some contacts of their private customers who had bough larger quantities as they themselves had none available to sell.

Well, the demand increase for Kodak motion picture films has been indeed even bigger than the strong demand increase for photo film (at least before the pandemic). I had posted the numbers some time ago in a dedicated thread here on photrio in the "Industry News" subforum.
The movie film market is quite different compared to the photo film market, as the movie film market is much more a "B2B" market: Much, much less consumers / clients for the products, but these clients are buying much, much more material per order.
Could Fujifilm go back into this market? Maybe in the long term. But I am convinced the following parameters are absolutely necessary for this to happen:
1. An ongoing and very significant further increase in demand for movie film on a global scale.
2. Strong direct requests from big clients at Fujifilm to re-enter this market and offering alternatives to the Kodak films.

kuparikettu said:
FilmoTec is apparently going to get into color negative motion picture film business next year....

InovisCoat / Filmotec with their new cooperation have indeed made their plans public that they are working on that.

Best regards,
Henning

laser · Sep 23, 2021

For those interested in how film is made the book "Making KODAK Film" is available.

www.makingKODAKfilm.com

brbo · Sep 23, 2021

Why don't Fuji and Kodak sell bulk rolls of C-41 film. If confectioning is so expensive for them I'd gladly buy 400ft of Portra/Ektar for 1/3 (still more expensive than ECN-2 movie film) of the price of boxed 135 rolls.

Agulliver · Sep 23, 2021

brbo said:
Why don't Fuji and Kodak sell bulk rolls of C-41 film. If confectioning is so expensive for them I'd gladly buy 400ft of Portra/Ektar for 1/3 (still more expensive than ECN-2 movie film) of the price of boxed 135 rolls.

You'd buy it. I'd probably buy some C41 film in 100 foot rolls. But realistically, how many would? Bulk B&W rolls are a diminishing business and far more of us use 100 ft B&W rolls than would use colour.

The only reason I could use the colour is because I have a good working relationship with my local mini-lab operator and I can tell her it's bulk loaded film, and to return the cassette.

brbo · Sep 23, 2021

I'm really not interested in how much bigger the BW is than C-41 and that nobody is shooting C-41 anymore...

The word around here is that there is a HUGE bottleneck in putting the film into canisters and how expensive that has become for Fuji and (especially?) Kodak. Are they doing so well financially that they don't want to make money on bulk rolls? Ok then...

MattKing · Sep 23, 2021

brbo said:
I'm really not interested in how much bigger the BW is than C-41 and that nobody is shooting C-41 anymore...

The word around here is that there is a HUGE bottleneck in putting the film into canisters and how expensive that has become for Fuji and (especially?) Kodak. Are they doing so well financially that they don't want to make money on bulk rolls? Ok then...

Relatively speaking (per unit cost), it costs Eastman Kodak a fortune to make 100 foot bulk rolls. Unlike 35mm cassettes, it is a very manual, and very expensive procedure.
So the wholesale costs are very high.
So the retail costs are very high.
So the sales are low.
And with low volumes, the manufacturing cost is very high.
The confectioning costs of all films make up a huge proportion of the price.

brbo · Sep 23, 2021

MattKing said:
Relatively speaking (per unit cost), it costs Eastman Kodak a fortune to make 100 foot bulk rolls. Unlike 35mm cassettes, it is a very manual, and very expensive procedure.

I never mentioned 100ft rolls. If it was so costly to make 400ft rolls they would never sell ECN-2 film at 1/4 of C-41 film price. Unless ECN-2 film is now heavily subsidised by us, C-41 and BW buyers.

Also, 1000ft and 400ft rolls have basically the same price per foot. No huge price premium for more than twice of "extremely expensive manual labour" of putting the film in the can (in UK there is a 3% price premium for buying 400ft vs 1000ft rolls).

MattKing · Sep 23, 2021

There is no custom edge printing (frame numbers) on motion picture film, and there is no practical infrastructure to support people who might consider buying C41 films in 400 foot rolls, without frame numbering.
The motion picture film machines that are designed for 400 foot and 1000 foot rolls are automated and relatively low in cost to operate. The production of still film bulk rolls in 100 foot lengths with frame numbering is much less automated, and with the market being so small, the costs are high.
Offer to buy a million feet or so of bulk rolls of edge printed C41 film. Kodak Alaris will get back to you with a much lower price for your consideration. Most likely you will have to pay up front.

Andrew O'Neill · Sep 23, 2021

I was in Kerrisdale Cameras today. He said shipments of C-41 films are rare. He just recently received several packs of 120 Provia, that they had ordered ages ago... now it's discontinued. They only had one dslr on the shelf. For once they had more analogue gear than digital!

brbo · Sep 24, 2021

MattKing said:
There is no custom edge printing (frame numbers) on motion picture film, and there is no practical infrastructure to support people who might consider buying C41 films in 400 foot rolls, without frame numbering.

Why do you need those?

MattKing · Sep 24, 2021

brbo said:
Why do you need those?

I wouldn't buy still film without them.
And labs certainly would not want to see a lot of film without frame numbers - they are critical to dealing with customers.

brbo · Sep 24, 2021

MattKing said:
I wouldn't buy still film without them.
And labs certainly would not want to see a lot of film without frame numbers - they are critical to dealing with customers.

People were buying Cinestill films just as much even when they still had the regular Vision3 markings. Photolabs were developing them with no problem. I have a minilab Noritsu LS-600 scanner and it doesn't care about the (lack of) frame numbers. The only thing that is a bit inconvenient is a reordering of a scan/print of a single frame from such film.

MattKing · Sep 24, 2021

Cinestill volumes are tiny little exceptions to the market. Interesting, but not capable of supporting the sort of costs associated with setting up an entirely different confectioning line.
And with respect to labs, it isn't the developing that is impacted. It is that old fashioned action of making and sorting of prints (and scans) for which the frame numbers are critical.
While you may not feel the need for frame numbers, many won't agree. And the number of people world wide who do their own scanning and who don't need frame numbers is too small to make such a product economically viable.
The only two reasons that the motion picture films are cheaper per foot are that the confectioning is simpler and cheaper in the lengths that are sold, and because the volume of those sales is sufficiently high. If you wanted the same from C41 films, you would need similar volumes, in the packaging that works for still photographers. Kodak can't even do that in black and white (because of low volumes) so I can't see it happening in colour.

Henning Serger · Sep 24, 2021

laser said:
For those interested in how film is made the book "Making KODAK Film" is available.

www.makingKODAKfilm.com

A really excellent book which I can highly recommend!

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Sep 24, 2021

MattKing said:
Relatively speaking (per unit cost), it costs Eastman Kodak a fortune to make 100 foot bulk rolls. Unlike 35mm cassettes, it is a very manual, and very expensive procedure.
So the wholesale costs are very high.
So the retail costs are very high.
So the sales are low.
And with low volumes, the manufacturing cost is very high.
The confectioning costs of all films make up a huge proportion of the price.

Exactly.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Sep 24, 2021

brbo said:
People were buying Cinestill films just as much even when they still had the regular Vision3 markings. Photolabs were developing them with no problem. I have a minilab Noritsu LS-600 scanner and it doesn't care about the (lack of) frame numbers. The only thing that is a bit inconvenient is a reordering of a scan/print of a single frame from such film.

But please also look at the prices of CineStill films: Much higher compared to regular C-41 photo films. It is small volume niche production, and that has significant negative effects on the economies of scale.
The same would affect C-41 bulk film production.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Sep 24, 2021

MattKing said:
Cinestill volumes are tiny little exceptions to the market. Interesting, but not capable of supporting the sort of costs associated with setting up an entirely different confectioning line.
And with respect to labs, it isn't the developing that is impacted. It is that old fashioned action of making and sorting of prints (and scans) for which the frame numbers are critical.
While you may not feel the need for frame numbers, many won't agree. And the number of people world wide who do their own scanning and who don't need frame numbers is too small to make such a product economically viable.
The only two reasons that the motion picture films are cheaper per foot are that the confectioning is simpler and cheaper in the lengths that are sold, and because the volume of those sales is sufficiently high. If you wanted the same from C41 films, you would need similar volumes, in the packaging that works for still photographers. Kodak can't even do that in black and white (because of low volumes) so I can't see it happening in colour.

Exactly.

Best regards,
Henning

35mm C41 Film Selling Very Well

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