35mm C41 Film Selling Very Well

[braxus]

I was trying to get some Portra 160 and Ektar 100 in 35mm 5 paks. One store has one, but not the other. Another store has neither. Seeing down the list many color 35mm films are out of stock. Is this because of Covid, or more because Millenials are shooting this stuff like crazy now, along with us only diehards? I was forced to choose some rolls in 120 instead, which is still in stock.

 

[koraks]

Mostly supply issues it seems. Note that Fuji has been steadily getting out of C41 with a recent blow being the discontinuing of Pro400H. In addition, supply has indeed been affected by covid, so it was an iffy situation to begin with. The combination of difficult supply & logistics, market shakeout and a modest revival of the film business creates sort of a perfect storm.

 

[AgX]

"35mm film selling very well"... at you YOUR shop.

 

[Nitroplait]

There seem to have been supply chain issues for a while, but it is also caused by people like myself who in the past would just buy a couple of rolls on a regular basis, but now tend to clean out their stock of a specific film in one go because of uncertainty of when I can buy again, just as I expect that when the shop restocks, it is often at a higher price.
I am assuming I am not the only one behaving differently from the past and given film is not such a hot and profitable item anymore, I am thinking that unpredictable behaviour like this must be annoying and difficult to plan for.

 

[Agulliver]

It is not just one shop. We know from Henning's info that demand for C41 colour films started to rise dramatically in 2017 and has continued to do so despite the pandemic. Covid has only made things worse with supply chain and manufacturing issues. Even before the pandemic there was a worldwide backlog of hundreds of thousands of films. Demand is not, of course, at 1990s levels. Some years ago Kodak managed to reduce their capacity to coat film and in doing so made shorter runs possible. However they realised in 2019 that they needed to increase capacity to meet increased demand. Ektachrome is also continuing to sell better than they expected. Fuji are more secretive but no doubt have their own problems.

Demand for colour film will never be what it was 20 years ago but after hitting rock bottom the rise since 2017 has been sustained. Many retailers cannot get hold of sufficient stock.

Henning would have the numbers but that, in a nutshell, is the situation. Worldwide, sustained increase in demand for colour photo films.

 

[focus_on_infinity]

We only know that demand at this price exceeds supply. We don't know total sales. I'm not sure that we've seen corresponding price increases that would indicate that there has been an increase in demand.

 

[braxus]

Kodak has mentioned there is more demand for still film this past couple years. Both Fuji and Kodak have had multiple price increases in the past couple years as well. Kodak said the price increase was needed to help purchase the needed items to keep making film and more of it. So yeah I'd say there have been corresponding price increases because of increased demand.

 

[koraks]

So yeah I'd say there have been corresponding price increases because of increased demand.

I wouldn't. I would say that the price increases were overall due to the fact that prices are still influenced by the market structure as it was about 20 years ago, and since demand since then has dropped dramatically, it has been very, very difficult for manufacturers to increase prices, making the progress extremely slow. So slow that essentially only one manufacturer still seems to covet this market, with the other remaining party merely milking from it what they can easily get.

 

[Nitroplait]

Even before the pandemic there was a worldwide backlog of hundreds of thousands of films.

We only know that demand at this price exceeds supply. We don't know total sales. I'm not sure that we've seen corresponding price increases that would indicate that there has been an increase in demand.

I am not sure about the demand exceeding supply or backlogs is the correct explanation.
I don't see shortages of any current-in-production film and would rather call it "supply chain asymmetry" for lack of better word.
I am very price sensitive and I am continuously scanning the market for the films I am interested in. "The market" is primarily my local shops and secondarily online EU stores.
At no point that I can recollect in the past two years was I unable to buy a given in-production film somewhere at a non-inflated price.
However, I buy only at the trailing end of the market, which means 20%-30% lower of what appeases to be the current non-inflated pricing of fresh film.
As expected the film I get is often within a year of expiry date and sometimes has "shop worn" packaging indicating it has been sitting on the shelf for a while - meaning somewhere out there are shops where film does not sell like hot cakes.
When I clear off the shelf of a given film in one of my local shops or from an online shop, it often takes forever for them to restock - and by that time the film is sold at the current price, of course, which I am uninterested in.

I have never been in a situation where I couldn't get my Portra, Ektar, Provia or whatever if I was willing to pay current price and postage from a shop somewhere in the EU - which to me indicate that supply is not the big problem, but apparently distribution and logistics is a challenge.

 

[Helge]

I am not sure about the demand exceeding supply or backlogs is the correct explanation.
I don't see shortages of any current-in-production film and would rather call it "supply chain asymmetry" for lack of better word.
I am very price sensitive and I am continuously scanning the market for the films I am interested in. "The market" is primarily my local shops and secondarily online EU stores.
At no point that I can recollect in the past two years was I unable to buy a given in-production film somewhere at a non-inflated price.
However, I buy only at the trailing end of the market, which means 20%-30% lower of what appeases to be the current non-inflated pricing of fresh film.
As expected the film I get is often within a year of expiry date and sometimes has "shop worn" packaging indicating it has been sitting on the shelf for a while - meaning somewhere out there are shops where film does not sell like hot cakes.
When I clear off the shelf of a given film in one of my local shops or from an online shop, it often takes forever for them to restock - and by that time the film is sold at the current price, of course, which I am uninterested in.

I have never been in a situation where I couldn't get my Portra, Ektar, Provia or whatever if I was willing to pay current price and postage from a shop somewhere in the EU - which to me indicate that supply is not the big problem, but apparently distribution and logistics is a challenge.

Would you like to tell us your country and possibly more specific location in it?

 

[Agulliver]

Portra and Ektar are usually in stock because they sell in smaller numbers. It is Color Plus, Gold and Fuji C41 films which have had trouble keeping up with demand. And it pre-dates the pandemic.

Kodak explicitly have stated that they needed to invest a lot of money into increasing production facilities to keep up with demand - and that was the reason for at least one of the price increases.

Not only do I listen to what Henning says, with his great contacts within the industry. I also talk with several photo/camera retailers around the UK who tell me exactly the same thing. They are unable to get hold of Color Plus, Gold, Fuji 160 and 400 (I know the latter is now cancelled). The suppliers who actually sell Kodak film to the retailers (they're not able to deal with K-A directly) report the same thing, unable to get sufficient supplies of Color Plus, Gold and sometimes Ektachrome as it was way more popular than expected. Some retailers have been waiting *two years* for unfulfilled 35mm and 120 C41 film orders from suppliers. These same retailers tell me that some time around late 2017 or early 2018 demand for colour film sharply increased and has remained at that high level. Kodak's B&W films have been affected too, albeit to a lesser extent. Ilfrod and Foma managed to keep up with demand is the increase in demand for B&W film was less than that for colour film.

Once again, Henning has the figures but he's stated the worldwide backlog is huge. And it pre-dates the pandemic.

Another bit of anecdote, I've been hitting junk shops and charity shops in recent months looking for cameras, more for friends who want to take up film photography than for myself. Several are reporting that they usually have some film cameras about but photography students are buying them all up as film is back on the curriculum. I've seen this in at least three English towns/cities - in Bedfordshire and Essex and in Cardiff in Wales. And these newcomers to film photography *all* want to buy C41 colour film, generally the cheapest they can get hold of.

 

[Nitroplait]

Would you like to tell us your country and possibly more specific location in it?

LOL - Just read what you wrote yesterday:
What Medium Format Cameras Are Members Here Using?

 

[Nitroplait]

The suppliers who actually sell Kodak film to the retailers (they're not able to deal with K-A directly) report the same thing, unable to get sufficient supplies of Color Plus, Gold

I don’t argue against retailers having issues, I can see they have.
I am arguing that I, from my perspective as a film consumer, don’t see difficulties in getting what I need if I am willing to pay current non-inflated price (and not the cheapskate that I am)
In an imperfect market you have to use your wits, it doesn’t help hitting the refresh button on Fotoimpex.
Even consumer film is available if you look around. Up until a year ago I was stocking up on C200/36 at €40 for 10 rolls from my local brick and mortar shop. When they sold out, I checked other local shops and C200 was easily available just not at that price. Right now my shop sells ColorPlus/36 at €45 for 10 rolls - and have done that for the past 2 years. C200 is back but at a price higher than Pro Image 100, so I buy that instead - but if you want c200, you can get it.

 

[Helge]

LOL - Just read what you wrote yesterday:
What Medium Format Cameras Are Members Here Using?

Let that be a lesson. ;-) As long as you don’t make a long list of your Rolleis and Hasselblads you’re good I’d think.

Of course film will have more grip in affluent and “influenced” towns and areas.

If you live in a random suburb or in the countryside. It’s going to be much the same, as when everyone thought “free unlimited photos‽” fifteen years ago.

 

[Agulliver]

Not only were the brick and mortar stores out of most C41 film (and are still awaiting orders to be fulfilled after two years), they're not the cheapest places in the first place. From the discount online retailers to the more expensive physical, independent camera specialists....there was a *worldwide* shortage and still is. I don't know if Henning will see this, but he's the one to ask because he's the industry analyst. But his consistent message has been that there was a large, sustained increase in demand for colour film which caught Kodak and Fuji by surprise and which continues to this day.

That's just borne out in various posters observations. I certainly could not get what I wanted and am on my last frozen roll of Color Plus bought in 2019, and two rolls of Ultramax. I could buy Portra or Ektar if I really wanted/needed colour film....but that doesn't disprove the point. The big increase in demand was at the other end of the market. FWIW I live in a town quite recently named "shittiest town in England"...it's mostly working class. It does have a university, with film and camera sales here driven by two types of people. Students, because they're being taught film photography again. And people who find or buy an old camera and want to "give it a try". The local camera shop attracts people by having 16mm film projectors, and a mix of film and digital cameras in the window. Inside it's 70% analogue. And in this town, as in the more affluent town 15 miles down the road, analogue is driving sales at the camera shop. Same in the London places I've visited and in Cardiff. In Essex, I was told that photography students are buying up all the used cameras from junk and charity shops because the uni there has returned film to the photography curriculum *by popular demand*. People's reaction to me going around shooting vintage cameras has changed too. Five years ago I was variously assumed to be mad, playing with unloaded cameras, up to no good, or just plain strange. Today I get people asking about my gear, if I'm a recent convert, where I buy film because they're looking for deals themselves, which film I am using and so on....people of all ages. A few years ago one might have been kicked out of a small music venue for shooting photos on a camera rather than a phone. Today I am well known as for shooting film at my local jazz and blues club, accepted by venue owner and staff and celebrated by the bands who get to know me and often use my pictures in promotional material. And....get this....I am no longer the only person shooting film there. At a medieval festival a few weeks ago I was far from the only person shooting on film.

Anecdotes mostly...but something has changed in the last five years.

 

[George Mann]

New stock of 35mm is as rare as hens teeth in the US!

 

[gone]

Probably COVID related supply & shipping issues. Things had sorta settled down and were working OK, then the new Variant arrived just as things started to improve. Now it's back to the same old, same old again. Finding color 35mm film in a store, or any film at all, is just about impossible, and I live in a city w/ 550,000 people. It's online buying or nothing for most of us.

 

[Moose22]

sustained increase in demand for colour film which caught Kodak and Fuji by surprise and which continues to this day.

One telling note int he Fuji announcement of the 400H production halt was that they specifically said it was due to supply chain issues. They couldn't get something (I don't remember what) reliably.

In the back of my mind I have held out hope that the production might return when the chemicals are available reliably again. It's not like the velvia 100, which ceased sales due to a regulatory issue. It's just that they can't make the emulsion so they're concentrating on what they can make. And, when I say held out hope, I don't need another 400 speed film if Portra is there, I just see the competition as a sign of a healthy market.

They've stopped and restarted before. And since they're still making some other film stocks, it's not like the instant film where they destroyed the tooling so it can never be made again. And a new company starting from scratch is WAY harder than slightly re configuring existing lines you've run for a generation, so if a new film stock is added or reintroduced, it's going to come from an existing manufacturer.

So, if they DO make a 400H or a similar equivalent again, it will be a sign that demand remains high enough to be worth their while.

 

[braxus]

Well I managed to get my order from B&H, so there's still some 35mm out there. They had Portra 160, Pro Image 100, and Color Plus 200 available in 35mm in stock. So I got the latter two films. I have rolls of Portra 160 in 120, so I don't really need it in 35mm. Also Im finding I like the more neutral colors on Pro Image from what I've seen. Portra 160 has a yellow tinge to it, and Portra NC type of saturation. I like my colors a little bolder. I could just shoot some Fuji consumer 400 film, since my store here has tons of that in stock. Its not sold out here. But I tend to prefer Kodak films and their colors more.

 

[braxus]

Yeah. Im still thinking of my old days of working in a photolab, where the scanner they used was what you got. I find its more of the scanner used then anything with what colors you'll end up with. But yeah you can change it to whatever you want.

 

[Bikerider]

It is pretty well the same here in UK. I managed to get 2 x 3pack Kodacolor Gold at a reasonable price but as for the C200 Fuji or Kodak 200 Colour plus you may as well whistle in the wind. In the heyday when film was very cheap and easily obtained and almost everyone including the press used 35mm this would account for the huge sales of the film where they could make it in vast quantities knowing that it would be sold. Thanks to digital those days are long gone and I doubt if they will ever return, but be thankful we do still have a supply but we just have to look harder to find it

 

[Huss]

@braxus you can dial in any colors you want after scanning. Color negative film, when scanning is your workflow, does not lock you in any kind of "palette". You simply get a slightly different starting point for your edits, that's all.

This is something I realized only recently. I started shooting, developing and scanning my own color film only in 2020. Must admit, I was also initially brainwashed by "internet people" proclaiming that "Ektar delivers cooked skintone" or for landscapes "Fuji green" is hard to beat. All of that is utter nonsense. They're basically talking about Noritsu/Frontier defaults from their labs.

If you are scanning, any color negative film can look exactly how you want it to look like. A well done color negative scan is quite similar to a RAW file from a digital camera. Sure, cameras have slightly different color science, but any competent Lightroom/CaptureOne user can get the look they want out of any RAW file.

Give me scans of Gold 200, Fuji 400H, Portra 400 and Cinestill 800T and I will make them all look exactly the same. Price, grain and speed are the only 3 variables worth paying attention to. Maybe latitude too. But a color palette - nope.

[EDIT] formatting.

Yep that is why my go-to is Fuji C200. I scan it myself and can make it look like anything I want. Love this film. I'll let others pay $12/roll for the fancy stuff that looks exactly the same.

The one difference I will point out, because you mentioned Cinestill 800T, is that 800T halos around light sources very noticeably. That is unique and something that I cannot recreate with other colour films.

 

[MattKing]

Not being able to buy film because the stores can't get it isn't really a sign of it selling well. It is a sign of problems with supply and/or distribution.

 

[Agulliver]

Not being able to buy film because the stores can't get it isn't really a sign of it selling well. It is a sign of problems with supply and/or distribution.

It's not just that though....the stores can't get enough because they are selling more than five years ago....Kodak and Fuji cannot keep up.

this all pre-dates the distribution issues caused by the pandemic. Though Fuji 400H is a different issue, one of the component chemicals/materials is simply no longer available. this is also believed to be the reason for Superia Xtra 200 and Superia 800 Xtra going. Something to do with the 4th colour layer. Superia 400 Xtra is no longer advertised as having that "4th colour layer"

 

[Duceman]

A couple of weeks ago I was at a rather large camera store in my area to purchase some chemistry products for B/W developing. The guy at the counter, when seeing what I was purchasing, commented that for the first time in a long time, film was selling quite briskly. And it wasn't being purchased by the grey-hairs such as myself, but by the more younger generation. More important, he mentioned that "whatever film they could get" was selling quite fast, that they were having a hard time even getting film to put on the shelves. He even said that sometimes they were only getting partial orders fulfilled. This would seem to suggest it is a supply-side issue, at least in my AO.